00:00:00.520 — 00:01:11.140 · Speaker 1

Let's be honest. Most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown. Later when the timing is right. Later when you finally stop caring what they think. Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Henry Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage.

This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. The place where we stop whispering about what's hard and start talking about what's real. Marriage. Divorce. Money. Motherhood. Faith. Sex. Power. No filters, no fake empowerment BS, just straight talk and practical truth for women who are done pretending that everything's fine because your next chapter isn't waiting on permission.

And neither are we. Hi everyone! I am so excited for you to join in on this conversation with my special guest, Steven Bradley, the, um, tech cowboy, right?

00:01:11.180 — 00:01:16.260 · Speaker 2

I mean, we've got the hat. I know we've got. We got the memo with our boots. We didn't even coordinate this to.

00:01:16.260 — 00:01:16.940 · Speaker 1

Start our.

00:01:16.940 — 00:01:34.620 · Speaker 2

Jam. Um, but this is so exciting. Former FBI investigator who is going to talk to us about some really hardcore practical stuff that I certainly wish I had known whenever I was going through the divorce. And and I'm so thankful to you for being here today. So how did I do on the intro?

00:01:34.660 — 00:01:47.580 · Speaker 3

I mean, that's great. That's perfect. It's perfect. Yeah. We talk about the hat all the time. People forget my name, but they never forget the hat. So it's one of those fun, fun things. They dubbed me the Tech Cowboy many years ago, so I kind of rolled with it. So it's great. It's fun. Yeah. Texas. Why not?

00:01:47.620 — 00:02:33.830 · Speaker 2

Right, I love it. Well, it's funny, um, whenever I very first met my husband, um, I now husband because a plot ruiner divorced, whatever. Remarried and whenever I first met him, I wore cowboy boots. And we went to. We met up in New Orleans. Like when we'd been kind of talking for a little bit. And we met up in New Orleans.

And I wore my cowboy boots. Well, I wore my cowboy boots because I only had, like, work shoes. It was just after the divorce and everything I had, like, work shoes or like sneakers and really nothing in between. But I wore my cowboy boots because I thought that would be like the in-between thing. That would be, like, decently comfortable for walking around New Orleans.

And it's funny because he tells he's like, he just assumed that that's what everybody in Texas did is just wear their cowboy boots all the time. So now I do wear my cowboy boots all the time.

00:02:33.870 — 00:02:35.150 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. They're great.

00:02:35.150 — 00:02:37.830 · Speaker 2

It's fun. That's where he's from, the northeast. And so he's.

00:02:37.830 — 00:02:38.710 · Speaker 3

Like, he doesn't get it.

00:02:38.750 — 00:02:58.170 · Speaker 2

Yeah, they don't quite get it, so. Okay. Steven, I am so excited to talk with you. You know, I think what might give people some context is tell us a little bit about your background and like, why talking to a whole bunch of women going through or during or after divorce. Like why it matters to you and like how you get here.

00:02:58.210 — 00:03:50.610 · Speaker 3

Absolutely, absolutely. So with my background, I specialize in domestic abuse, sexual assault, human trafficking with a component of technology. And one thing I found along the way is family law has a unique parallel with lot of domestic violence, you know, situations. Some are abusive, some aren't.

But the tactics and tools are exactly the same. So I was able to take my background and apply it to where we are. The thing about technology is we love technology. We use technology every single day. I mean, Google Maps to get here. Everything is technology, but unfortunately, going through a divorce or separation process, that technology that we know and love becomes a weapon.

It becomes a tool and it can be used against us. If we don't know how to protect ourselves or protect the data that we want shared. You know, just for example, you know, we we start dating somebody. Let's talk about your husband. We've all played that 20 questions game. You know, what's your favorite color?

What school did you go to. What color your first car. What are those. Those are security questions. So we tell.

00:03:50.650 — 00:03:51.810 · Speaker 2

Our mothers middle name.

00:03:51.850 — 00:04:20.350 · Speaker 3

Exactly. There's no name. Exactly. So we tell people to change their passwords, but we forget about the security questions. So one thing we often hear about in divorce type cases is, you know, you know, it's like a mental health crisis. Oh, she's crazy or he's crazy. And that's not necessarily true because in a relationship, there's all kinds of personal information that you know about each other.

So we get access to these accounts. If we don't know how to protect ourselves in the proper way. So again, this technology we love becomes a tool. It becomes weaponized against us.

00:04:20.750 — 00:04:31.470 · Speaker 2

And so could you tell us a little bit about what you did just for some context? Because like a real live FBI person, that's just kind of cool. Is it just like in the movies, like everywhere you go, you flash your badge and you come in with guns?

00:04:31.670 — 00:04:58.170 · Speaker 3

No, not at all. I wish it was that it looks really cool on TV, but a lot of times it's just a lot of paperwork and a lot of investigations, a lot of, you know, tracking down, um, the offenders and the bad guys, especially in cyber, especially in technology related crimes, because they can be anywhere in the world, they can be all over the world.

Um, so we think it's something that we know it's in our backyard, but unfortunately it's, you know, so they're time consuming. So it's definitely not like Hollywood. I wish it was, but it definitely is not.

00:04:58.210 — 00:05:39.850 · Speaker 2

Okay. Well, we'll just pretend. For those of you who are just listening, it's cooler. That way. You can picture him with like, his cowboy hat and like his badge and the whole thing. Okay, so you talked about this technology becoming a weapon. And, you know, I think there could be a tendency, whether it be to, like, be like an ostrich and put our head in the sand or not wanting to be chicken Little like over drama slash maybe some gaslighting and things going on.

But there could be this tendency for us to minimize it or like, not want to think about this issue. Why would you say it's really important to any woman listening to this, that they hear us all the way through and, and consider the advice you have to give them?

00:05:39.890 — 00:06:53.320 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. Well, the biggest thing is we don't know what we don't know. And just things like shared communications. You're living in a house together. You have shared access to the Amazon Alexa. You have shared access to everything. Thing. So by changing passwords, we have to remember about all of our accounts.

OnStar in our vehicles today, if I can say, hey, where's my Tahoe at? And within two feet of accuracy, tell you just by calling the company we remember these are all shared accounts. So we have to kind of think of make a checklist almost, if you will. What are all our digital accounts, what what can be accessed by both parties and then start separating those out.

And that way kind of keeps those things in check. I can access to your bank anymore. People just really interested about money and I get that. But there's other things that are just as important. Or we use the same email and same password for every one of our accounts. Everybody's guilty of that. Oh, I know it's not just you.

It's something that we use the same thing for the bank because we do the library. Well, in a, in a offender world, you know, the library has no security. The banks got amazing security. But if I can hack or breach the library, I get access to your password through your bank account. So use different accounts for different things.

but the first thing is to start to separate out your accounts.

00:06:53.360 — 00:08:50.310 · Speaker 2

Okay. Yeah. Cool. Because, you know a couple things. Like whenever we're getting divorced, right? You have to split up. I always tell people like, you have to name it, to name it. So you have to figure out what their even is, and then how can we do something about it? And so it sounds like what you're talking about is, you know, you normally think about money in the bank and kid stuff and who's going to get the couch and the house.

But the passwords in the world we live in. Uh, any estate planning lawyer that is worth their weight in salt is thinking about this right now. Same thing. Right? As the technology has sped up and evolved, the law is y'all often very slow to keep up with it. Um, but that's one of those things we need to be considering.

I know for myself, one of the very first videos I ever made on the internet. What? And this was before people were putting videos on LinkedIn or anything pre-pandemic was called Lock It Down. And I had had this realization that, hey, clients are going to share like a I was thinking about an iCloud password or they have like a family account on some computer or this family iCloud that all the devices are logged into and then all their photos go to.

I was thinking of the photos and I was like, oh my God, if they don't get a duplicate of that, but maybe before they ever file or change the password or what have you. Then this person, if they're malicious, could go in and move everything out of there and you don't have any pictures of your baby from, you know, the time they started.

And that was my very first video. It did get some traction back then. That's kind of how we sit here today, actually. Um, but let's, let's zoom out a little bit for anybody listening. So there's just a regular gal. She's not a super tech gal. Yeah. There's some shared accounts. She probably uses the same password everywhere.

Can you explain to us a little bit about the the danger in, in trying to hide from this, like putting your head in the sand, like, oh, that's just something that, you know, happens in the movies. Like what is at stake?

00:08:50.390 — 00:10:01.810 · Speaker 3

This is a lot at stake. So we call it the manipulation of communication or manipulation of technology. So just for example, for text messages, there's apps out there. Free programs allow you to spoof and manipulate text messages. So when you're being authentic and you're bringing your attorney or bringing or just reviewing your own text messages, how do you know that the text messages that your partners take into their attorney are authentic or actually yours, your communication, not, like you said, trying to make one person look bad or one situation look different than it did.

These free apps and free program allows you to do that. So again we talk about all types of technologies. But communication is one of the biggest things that we're going to have to focus on when it comes to divorce and separation, because that's when it gets contentious. That's when it gets, you know, the issues come out and the it can be a roller coaster.

I love you, I could be I hate you all in the same week, but those things will eventually come to a head. You know, communication's biggest thing, whether it be emails or text messages or DMs or whatever type of message that is. Lock those down. Make sure you have a copy of those, or using a program like we're going to talk about in a minute, that makes sure that it's a secure platform, that nothing can be manipulated or changed within that technology.

00:10:01.850 — 00:10:55.590 · Speaker 2

Well, what convinced me of this was the first time I saw online a video that I thought was of Tom cruise saying like, something weird. I think that was one of those first sort of deepfake videos that that came out to at least Muggles like me. Um, and I remember seeing that and be like, oh my God, how can we believe anything we see or read?

And you see this just scrolling on Facebook or whatever right now all the comments are like, oh, that's AI, look at the hands. Whatever. The thing is, they're looking for these little identifiers. So in the context of family law, I think what's at stake, at least one thing is, um, if you don't like the loss of information like it can delete, and then if you don't change the passwords, somebody can get in and make inmate communications, all allegedly.

And I'm using quotes like on your behalf and then later you're going to see those in cornerback. I didn't say that. And they're going to be like, yes, you did, and then it's going to be a he said, she said.

00:10:55.630 — 00:11:42.430 · Speaker 3

And that's what it comes down to. He said, she said, and that's to your point. Lock it down. Make sure you're using a tool that can't be changed. It can't be manipulated. You know, you know what? Things are authenticated no matter what it is, whether it be your financial accounts, whether it be the schools, schools, information, your kids class schedule, lock it down.

The calendar people use like Google calendars and that's great. But what's to say I can't go on Google Calendar and put an appointment on there last week and say, uh oh, she missed that appointment or he missed that appointment. He wasn't there to try to get you in trouble right now. Might be amicable. You may be trying to figure this out.

Try and see. Do I really want to go through a divorce or whatnot testing the waters? But as you said, things will get ugly at some point and these little things can be changed later to make you hate the bad person. And that's where it gets us. It's a slippery slope. It really.

00:11:42.430 — 00:12:10.560 · Speaker 2

Is. Yeah. So I guess what we're thinking about is at the onset, if someone's, you know, at least in the middle of like starting the divorce process, both of us would tell them to lock everything down, change those passwords. We all know it's sort of the same things you do at work, right? Turn on to two factor authentication too far so that you have to give the code from your phone.

Um, any other sort of initial like things that this is a low hanging fruit that they could start real quick.

00:12:10.600 — 00:13:23.300 · Speaker 3

Yes. Change your Wi-Fi password. Wi-Fi is big. Remember, you live in the same home. So if I put hidden cameras or hidden recorders in your home, I live there. Once upon a time, if I if it's activated through your home Wi-Fi, if you change that password, it's going to break that connection so they won't be able to monitor you from afar.

Another tool used to monitor is the Amazon Alexa. It has a monitor mode, so even if we're not in the same house together and I know the password to it, I can be on my phone. I can listen to what's going on inside your home. Yeah. So if you get a new partner and your boyfriend and your girlfriend, I can listen to what's going on inside your home and you'll never know.

I'm monitoring you. So we talk about technologies. It's not just our phone and our TV and things we think about. It's every form of digital technology in our home. Some refrigerators, they can spy on you. It just depends on what you have. And that's why I said go back to the checklist. Check make a checklist of what online accounts do we have?

What apps are on my phone. That's a big indicator. If there's an app on your phone to something inside your house, like a ring doorbell, that means that person can have access to it as well. If there's an app for your refrigerator, that person has access to it, so on and so forth. So I start there and start locking those down, lock it back to your lock it down, lock those down.

Change the passwords, including your home Wi-Fi. People forget about that a lot, I'm sure.

00:13:23.340 — 00:13:37.580 · Speaker 2

I mean, I have never once changed a home Wi-Fi ever. I don't even I mean, I'd have to call spectrum, I guess. Um, okay. And do you have advice of when in the process? They should do this right away?

00:13:37.620 — 00:14:34.280 · Speaker 3

As soon as. So as soon as you think that you're going to. Well, if you're contemplating divorce, you're thinking about divorce because some people are at that stage right now, they're just like, do I really want to do this? I know it's going to be a financial toll. It's going to be a toll on the children. It's going to be a lot.

You know, my mostly involved in this. So some things you want to start going ahead and doing, if there's something that you know is going to be important in the future, like financial accounts, things like that, those you might want to go ahead and take a prioritize if you will prioritize the ones that you think could have the most impact if you've already separated out of the home.

So we're not in a situation called sharing time today, where you share a home so the kids don't have to move to mom or dad moves out for two weeks at a time. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the point where you decide, okay, we're going to split. That's when you lock down everything.

At the time, the person the partner moves out of your home may make the split. And that way, all your connections, all your stuff is separate. That person has their access, you have your access, and everything's good.

00:14:34.320 — 00:15:34.780 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And one of the things I talk about in the my confident divorce course is to be really careful about timing when you do this, because I'm glad you brought this up. If you do it too soon with too much, you can tip the other party off and lose the benefit of cover of them not knowing while you figure out what you want to do.

Circle the wagons and figure that out. Because if all of a sudden your partner that you're still living with, you're thinking of divorcing them, but you haven't filed yet or they don't know, and you try to reset 17 different accounts and they get all the because they're probably going to get notices. They're going to know something's up.

So you I would think and see if you think this is right. But I would think the way to do it is a real like trick, like a drip, drip, drip, inconsistently, not on the same day, one at a time, over a period of time, starting with sort of the biggest hit. But I mean, like bank account, a lot of people I y'all I don't know that you can much do that until it's about to be imminent, because they're going to get locked out of their bank account, they're going to freak out.

00:15:34.780 — 00:16:29.270 · Speaker 3

And that's the whole thing. It's like home wifi. I come home from work, whatever. I can't get access to Wi-Fi. It gets a red flag. Something's up here. So that's what you're exactly correct. A trickle effect, prioritize the account. So, like the home wifi. If he comes home from work and the Wi-Fi doesn't work, or she comes home from work and Wi-Fi doesn't work, well, that's going to be a red flag.

So I wouldn't do the major things until the split is going to actually occur. Once there's, okay, we're done, we're doing this. That's when you want to make those big splits. The other stuff you can do gradual. They may not pay attention to the ring doorbell. They may not have multi-factor authentication turned on to that or in the process.

What you can do slowly before you even know things up, start changing. The email addresses on these accounts in that way can just do like one a day, because again, the multi-factor authentication could come to your partner as well. So you just do it once a day. I don't know, I spend a weird bug in there. I'm not sure I'll weird.

I'll look into it. Just it's oddities, technology. Things happen.

00:16:29.310 — 00:16:30.350 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Work made me do it.

00:16:30.390 — 00:16:37.810 · Speaker 3

Yeah. So again just slowly roll. But like you said, if you change five accounts one day. Oh, that's a red flag. So again trickle effect.

00:16:37.850 — 00:17:52.110 · Speaker 2

One thing I always tell clients and people in the circle community is be careful because every action has an equal or greater reaction. So you're going to want to. If I were doing this I'd make my list. So name entertainment and I would create a list of everything that has all of these like digital online accounts that I can think of.

Go through all your spam, go through all your junk, go through your Gmail, your work, all the things that you've set up. And I love what you said about what's tied to your home, because that's how we can get surveillance issues going on. Like, I don't have an Alexa for that exact issue. I didn't want to have one for that reason.

But like an Alexa or things like that. And then picking what I would do is prioritize it in rank, order of importance, and especially the surveillance ones. You know, those might be hard to change, especially if he or she is surveilling you. Um, they're going to know right away when you do this, um, and get some that you're ready to change on a dime where especially the money stuff.

Because if one person changed, it's just that it can take off like wildfire. All the changes. And if you're not ready to go, uh, then you can be in a real pickle. And like, let's say you have to prioritize your top ten, and you notice that the first two he starts doing, you're in a race to do the rest.

00:17:52.150 — 00:18:47.000 · Speaker 3

Absolutely correct. Absolutely. That's that's the whole thing is both parties have potential listening to this podcast. So it's one of those things that it could be a race. So pay attention, be observant. Don't be head in the sand. As you mentioned earlier, not looking at your own email accounts, not looking for that multi-factor authentication to pop up because your partner could be ahead of you.

They know something's coming. There's thumbs up again, protect yourself, monitor your, monitor your own stuff, but make that list. That way you know what's important to you. What do I want to get out of this? If something happened today, what's what do I need to have to prepare? It's kind of like prepping for a tornado or a hurricane, you know?

What do I need to be able to vacate today? What do I need to do to be be okay? Make sure my kids have provided for make sure I'm provided for. So that's kind of your list and prioritize that in that way. Amazon Alexa might be top of your list, but food and water may be, you know, bank account may be. But again, as you said, you may have to beat or raise your partner to that to that point.

00:18:47.040 — 00:19:06.560 · Speaker 2

For me, it would be that priceless stuff like your iCloud. If you have any kind of photo sharing. And what I would do to get around that, y'all, is go ahead. Now, if you haven't done this, no matter where you are in the process, and just duplicate that stuff into a Google Drive or some other kind of an online locker, sort of a thing, so that even if all the password you can do that without alerting.

00:19:06.560 — 00:19:06.960 · Speaker 3

I totally.

00:19:06.960 — 00:19:52.580 · Speaker 2

Agree. You could copy your whole iCloud photos, get those onto even a, you know, a hard drive or something like that. Okay, so this this sort of stuff, Steven sounds like things that pretty much every single woman, whether they're it's a totally contentious situation or not. I always say hope is not a strategy.

So we're not going to just hope that everything goes okay. And this is a little bit of advanced planning, but I know you have experience in dealing with situations where you know that there's conflict, you know that there's some stuff going on. Like, for instance, I was thinking about a case I had a while back with a Tesla, and the opposing party who happened to be a guy, was messing with the Tesla app on my client's car.

And that app can do a lot to the car.

00:19:52.620 — 00:19:53.220 · Speaker 3

Absolutely.

00:19:53.260 — 00:20:25.180 · Speaker 2

Uh, and getting the log in back from him for that app was the subject of a lot of litigation. And what a what advice do you have? Or like, what would you say to those women who were like, okay, I already know he uses technology to mess with me. I already know he uses the Nest Thermostat. If if if he's mad at me to crank up the heat while it's hot outside already, you know, what advice or different thinking do those women need to have where we know it's going to be contentious?

00:20:25.180 — 00:20:42.160 · Speaker 3

Documentations your friend document all those cases, all those incidents that are happening document as best you can, whether it be IP addresses or anything. There's apps on your phone that will actually, you know, document every time that your IP address is used or is logged in. There's Apple logs on your phone.

If you have an Apple phone, they'll.

00:20:42.280 — 00:20:45.400 · Speaker 2

Wait, hang on, what's an IP address for those of us who are not that smart?

00:20:45.400 — 00:21:43.540 · Speaker 3

Yeah. So an IP address is how your device accesses certain accounts or the, the, the address it uses to access that account. The reason why that's important is because if your partner is accessing the same account and from a different IP address, we know which person actually did it. Like the logs of Tesla logs, I can say this person, you know, turned on the cameras at this date and time versus this person because their phone, their Mac address, their IP address was this at this certain date and time.

So it's it's much more that's probably more advanced that we should be talking about. But it's how we can actually prove it later. Prove it later. But again document any kind of weird things that happen. Nothing's too small. Like I said, the Nest Thermostat goes up or down. Uh, your ring doorbell just goes off in the middle of the night.

Whatever it may be. Document those little things best you can. Take screenshots of that of your phone. Different accounts. And that way you kind of have a a playbook of, okay, these things are happening. These are weird. Even like multi-factor authentication as they pop up out of the blue.

00:21:43.980 — 00:21:49.300 · Speaker 2

Can I get some sometimes? Like, what is this coming? Where is this coming from? And nobody in my life is like, I don't need a code. Like, uh.

00:21:49.740 — 00:22:33.430 · Speaker 3

Exactly, exactly. Anything that's odd and weird document. Even if it's not a you're your partner doing this, it could be an online attack or an online offender. You know, one out of three of us will be a victim of online crime within the next five years, if you haven't already been. Because we're so exposed to our technology, we take our phones everywhere.

We take them to the bathroom. So that's why I say document going through divorce. It heightens it even more within the first and 3 or 4, 3 to 4 months of separation. That is the most difficult time for any family as far as like stalking, things happen where, you know, I can't let go or whatnot. Monitoring technology, putting GPS trackers in your car.

Apple AirTags. It's usually within the first 3 to 4 months are the worst is the worst time for that?

00:22:33.470 — 00:22:55.230 · Speaker 2

Before we go any further, let me ask you something. What if you didn't have to Google your way through divorce at 2 a.m.? What if you actually had a place with real women's talk to real answers in real time? That's the circle. It's where I go live every single week, unpack the hard stuff and help you stop spinning.

Go to my confident divorce

00:22:56.470 — 00:24:53.710 · Speaker 2

circle because confusion costs more than clarity ever will. I cannot wait to see you in there. For listeners of Not Saving It for later, you are going to be ready to take the bull by its horns and get on top of your custody situation. That's what we do around here. The thing is, you're going to be inundated all over the internet with every single tool course, toolkit, PDF that exists because people want to make money off you in this situation.

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00:24:55.430 — 00:24:59.630 · Speaker 3

So again, document and just be aware. Beware your surroundings. Things are happening.

00:24:59.630 — 00:26:10.760 · Speaker 2

Well, and I think as thinking from a lawyer with the lawyer hat on for a second, I guess my lawyer hat would be a cowboy hat, but with my lawyer hat, well, that's going to allow me to do is piece together patterns that you may not see. It's like when you're in the forest for the trees, right? When you're so close to it.

And these one offs, you may not think much of it until we put it in a spreadsheet. Maybe get our friend an AI tool to help us analyze like what are the patterns and what is going on exactly to track it now? My my $0.02 would be you don't necessarily need to tell your lawyer every single time, like the thermostat goes up by two degrees.

But creating that log I'm trying to save you money, but creating that log so that they could use it as evidence of what's going on. And you might be surprised what your lawyer can put together that you never would. I know that was my experience in my own case, and I think when it comes to people who know it's going to be contentious, doing a lot of documenting, they've changed.

So let's think about the steps. They've changed all their they've locked it down with all their passwords got too far, set up where they can. They've started documenting anything weird. When does it rise to the level. When does

00:26:12.360 — 00:26:32.540 · Speaker 2

these one off, quote unquote one off occurrences. When does it become something they need to do something about? Like is there is there some sort of rule of thumb for people listening like, okay, that. There's like low level first three or months kind of drama. Everybody's hot headed, is there? When is it that they need to escalate and do something.

00:26:32.540 — 00:28:18.480 · Speaker 3

When you notice something's actually wrong? So what do you mean by that? Is one of the number one tools to use to to spy on anybody and is using quote unquote healthy relationships as well. Is this tool called spyware or spouse where or stalker where it's a it's basically free software or at the most it's $7 that can clone your phone.

Now, if we're the same home together, I can clone your home very easily. You take a shower, you go to sleep. I get access to your device or through the cloud. What that basically means is anything that happens on your phone, I get an exact copy of. So you're communicating with your lawyer through email or through text.

Whenever I get a copy of that, I get your locations people again, they'll tell me, well, see, they know where I am. They listen to my communications. They're always at the store or the park. They always seem to know everything about me. Well, those are not just weird things. Remember what I said earlier about the mental health?

I'm crazy. You're not crazy. There's tools out there that allow people to monitor and to know everything about you. Again, the first 3 or 4 months, this is when they're going to want to know. We'll just have a new boyfriend, new girlfriend, what's happening here. And they're going to. That's when the monitoring really comes out.

So my suggestion is why don't you notice things are really, really kind of acting strange. They are acting strange. And that's the way you really want to make sure everything's locked down and really pay attention. Um, look for or take your phone to the to that phone company, or go to the Apple Store or whatever it may be and say, is there spyware on my phone?

I think someone's listening to me or following my phone, my locations. They can scan your phone and your cloud to let you know if they're spyware in there. It's the number one most use common tool to use today on any kind of relationship, if you will. Then you look at TV, reality TV, everybody wants to know everything about everybody.

What better way to do it through your phone? Yeah. So that's one of the big things out there.

00:28:18.540 — 00:29:19.710 · Speaker 2

Well, that's what you've got in your pocket, your purse in your hand everywhere, um, at all times. And I think that I'm thinking back years ago with some of the cases where before this was as, as mainstream, uh, as it is now, and a few times where this guy just showed up where my client was, and she swore there was something to it, and back then people were a little bit more like eye roll.

Okay, sure. It was just a coincidence, you know? Because just for what it's worth, everyone listening, do not go install those things on your partner's devices because you were probably committing state and federal crimes. By doing so, it is against the law to intercept or monitor these communications and computers that were not meant for you.

Mhm. Um, but that doesn't mean look, laws and rules are for law and rule abiding people. That's what I tell clients all the time. You're not going to do it listener, but somebody may be doing it to you. And so I think it's listen, in case you're talking to your lawyer or to a judge about this, they may still be pretty slow to believe you.

00:29:19.750 — 00:29:20.390 · Speaker 3

Absolutely.

00:29:20.430 — 00:29:43.150 · Speaker 2

Stephen and I, we believe you. Absolutely. If something in your gut tells you something's up and you don't have a history of, like, paranoia or dreaming up weird stuff, um, then your there's probably something to do that I love what you said about just going to Apple and having them take a look. Now it can get more sophisticated than just on your phone, right?

Maybe we can talk about some of that with trackers and things like that in just a minute.

00:29:43.190 — 00:30:16.130 · Speaker 3

I see you talking about trackers. Yeah. Can people talk about things we don't think about? You know, like we think about AirTags and people track me. Whatever. These right here are actually the number one trackers seen in family law today. Is AirPods, you know, a wireless headphones that cook to my find my feature.

I guess things we don't think about if you find an Apple AirTag in your purse, you know I'm tracking you. That's the whole purpose of that. But if you find my headphones, babe, I'm looking for my headphones. No, I've been tracking you the whole time. Through my headphones, through my find, my feature. Wow.

So simple things like that that we don't think about when it comes to monitoring and following somebody.

00:30:16.210 — 00:30:44.890 · Speaker 2

Well, and back in the day, over ten years ago, when I was getting divorced, um, the, the only experience I had that I know of, uh, about this was the find my, uh, friends, I think it wasn't the apple didn't have it, like, installed on everything back then, but the five of my friends and a lot of couples do this for for totally legitimate reasons so that, like, I can peek on my phone and see, are you on the way home yet or not because you're busy or you're on a call, you know, for reasons like that, you've got the kids.

00:30:44.890 — 00:30:45.610 · Speaker 3

60 things like.

00:30:45.610 — 00:32:05.150 · Speaker 2

That, things like that. But as soon as you're you're not in that fiduciary relationship of trust and confidence, it can turn on you. And I think women are, generally speaking, super slow to switch gears because they've relied even if this person they're divorcing, this happens all the time. They're still trusting this person, they're still believing what they're saying.

And look, y'all, in some situations they are still trustworthy and believable ish and in other situations not on your life, and you have to treat it, unfortunately, with a healthy dose of skepticism and suspicion that you can ease up on later. But for me, with the find of my friends, one day it occurred to me when I was at law school, I was like, oh, this is still on.

And we were in the process of getting. I mean, I'd said I wanted to leave. I think I was still living in the house at that time. I turned it off and he called me within seconds like, oh, hey, are you on your way home? And I didn't realize he'd monitored this at all. I didn't ever look at it, so I was I mean, unless there was some issue or something, it wasn't something I looked at all the time.

And when I turned it off and he called me and I was like, oh my God, he's been viewing it all of the time, even though we're like breaking up. And so it put this bee in my bonnet the whole time.

00:32:05.190 — 00:32:59.760 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. And that's all thanks to divorce separation. One person wants it. One person does it. Whether you tell each other, I hate your guts, and I want this. whatever one person in the day wants, and one person does it. One person is going to want to monitor more and want to know more information about you.

Why are you wanting to leave me now? What's the what's the reason? Why is your new boyfriend new girlfriend? Where are you going? So it's tools like that. We don't think about it very inconspicuous. But going back to your point, one thing I like to talk about. And you and you kind of hit the nail on the head, is validation.

Most of these people, when they go and they talk about it or they go look for advice, they go on social media and everybody's a different story. But the biggest thing is I like to validate, you know, where they're at in the process, because I know these technologies have all kinds of abilities to stalk, monitor, do different things.

But to find a journey like yourself or find a professional that you can work with that understands technology and elevate you to the next process is is huge.

00:32:59.800 — 00:34:37.000 · Speaker 2

Well, and keep in mind, everybody that lawyers are not superheroes. I mean though sometimes we play one in the courtroom, but, um, we're learning alongside everybody else, and we've all had clients who come in and make all these wild sort of accusations, and then none of them bear out. And then we've spent a bunch of money and we kind of look like idiots.

And so I think that understanding that just because you're a lawyer isn't like, oh, yeah, let's get it. The IP addresses of the blah, blah, blah API tech. I'm trying to think of tech words I know internet. Um, it doesn't mean necessarily that they don't believe you. They may not have the skills and experience.

So if you're in a situation where you're thinking about getting divorced and the guy or guy or gal, you're divorced. But I guess mostly guys we're divorcing are pretty tech savvy. Maybe they've given you some indications along the way that they sort of know what you're up to. Some of them will even threaten it.

Um, if they're the sort of person who, like, renames everything and find me. So everything has a special name and whatever. I've known this one couple where this guy did that. Like, how do you even do that? And that guy is very aware. So if that's your situation, I think you're going to need to go ahead. And when you're interviewing lawyers, explain that up front and see how up and up are they on this technology and what's happening and how it's ever changing.

Because as lawyers, you know, we're in a real in a real tough spot, uh, where we're considering all this evidence and things our clients give us. It's like, how do I know that this is real? You know, we're also in the seed of, like, are you gaslighting me?

00:34:37.159 — 00:35:26.370 · Speaker 3

And that's the whole thing. You to law school. You didn't go to technology school. So sometimes you have to work with an expert like myself in order to put those pieces together to see that. But you can go back to your point about your vendor may be or your partner may be a tech savvy person. Unfortunately, there's so many videos on YouTube today and social media that empowers these people, these keyboard warriors on how to, you know, use these tools and how to do X, Y, and Z.

One of my favorite places to go for content for like presentations is Reddit. Reddit. If you're not familiar, it's where it's newsgroups where people talk about different things. Just go ahead and talk about divorce, put in divorce or put it in stocks and you'll see people talking about these tools. Hey, you can use this.

So you may not have to be tech savvy in order to do this. And that's why I always go back to if you think something's weird, probably something's probably weird. You know, you have that radar up and say, hey, what's actually happening here? And document those.

00:35:26.410 — 00:35:56.130 · Speaker 2

Okay. So there, what we're watching out for oddities, right. These sort of one off things that happen. What about, you know, having the sense that somebody keeps showing up where we're going or whatever. I know clients have asked this in the past about having like, we've all seen it on spy shows like on Bourne Identity or something, um, where they put something on your car that can says where you're going.

Obviously there's air tags and things like that. How would somebody know that someone's tracking their car, and then what do they do about that?

00:35:56.170 — 00:37:11.610 · Speaker 3

Well, usually they'll tell them or again, there's oddities will pop up. Where why were you at the why were we at target today? Why are you at Walmart? Why are you here? They'll just ask questions in general. Conversation. Like, well, I didn't tell you I was there, so how'd you know I was there? So. And there are some apps on your phone.

And I tell people I. In fact, I use it in my everyday practice for consulting is they they sell these little handheld gadgets on Amazon or eBay that you can go purchase like 50 bucks. It actually is a detector for, you know, any type of electronic device like Wi-Fi or a GPS tracker. If you think something's happening, you can go scan your car.

So it's a $4,050 investment, but you can always use something like that to say, hey, is there some frequency that here is not supposed to be here? And so they are a useful tool. I mean, there's some better ones out there, but the typical $4,050 one is going to do you it's going to be just okay for what you need for something like that.

But going back to your point again, you're going to start noticing things in conversations about, you said this or you did that or you went there. Part of these spyware programs, probably apps, these these apps, they activate your microphone remotely. So I can listen to the whole conversation and turn on your camera.

A couple of years ago, Apple started putting these little colored dots at the top right hand corner of the screen, but they did a horrible job telling us what they were for.

00:37:11.690 — 00:37:12.610 · Speaker 2

I wondered that.

00:37:12.650 — 00:37:34.250 · Speaker 3

Yeah, but the green dots are camera and the orange dots are microphone. So if I'm sitting here and I take my phone and see what time it is and my orange dots on my microphone is on and somebody's listening to us or my camera's on, and that's what these things do. And they remotely activate and access. So again, if they say so a conversation you had repeated conversation I know a location.

Those are indicators that something's occurring.

00:37:34.370 — 00:38:09.310 · Speaker 2

Okay. Is there anything that people who are not yet in the throes of this, who are not yet embroiled in all of this drama? Maybe they're in a decent marriage. Maybe there's like, some little inkling that they're thinking maybe. And they want to get prepared and they're sort of eager beaver sorts. Would you have any generalized tips for women setting up their lives and their tech and and with partners and whatever, maybe as they restart again.

What are some general rules you would give them about how to do that so they don't end up back in this situation?

00:38:09.350 — 00:39:01.310 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. So one of the biggest ones I always talk about that people never forget about or never think about, rather is an antivirus anti-malware program for your cell phone. We do it for our computers, but not why not our phones. Phones actually went away in 2007 when the very first iPhone came out. These these devices we call around, we call phones are super computers that make phone calls, but we don't protect and lock them down by having this antivirus anti-malware program installed on our phone.

And there's some free ones in the App Store. The paid ones are better, and you may have when you have one that came with your internet provider from home. But it's can prevent me from remotely installing a program to your device through like a click bait email. You know, phishing type email or text message.

That's just every day, whether you're going through divorce or not. Just protect yourself every day. We all get these strange text messages, hey, you know, is this so-and-so or did I meet you last week? Whatever. It's just a.

00:39:01.310 — 00:39:03.800 · Speaker 2

I got one the other day was like, could you pick up the horse?

00:39:03.800 — 00:40:39.340 · Speaker 3

Exactly. And just don't ever ask. Don't respond to those. That's what people is looking for, a way to get access to you. But a good antivirus anti-malware on your cell phone, it's going to be a good first move. The second one is a VPN, a virtual private network. If you're only using your mobile data, your mobile hotspot, for the most part, you're okay.

But if you go to Starbucks or McDonald's or anywhere with public Wi-Fi and you're on public Wi-Fi and I'm on public Wi-Fi, I can see everything that you're doing. Think about every time you go to Starbucks. There's always the person sitting in the corner working on a computer that's not their office, but they're always there.

It's called a man in the middle attack, because every Starbucks WiFi across the country has the same exact WiFi information. When you get ten feet from the front door, it automatically logs you in. If you've ever logged into a Starbucks. And while you're in there, he's actually the Starbucks WiFi. He's sucking all your information, all your data out of your devices.

So that's why it's important to have a VPN on your phone. Again, it's a free one's. I do not recommend free apps in just in general, but free Wi-Fi or free excuse me, free VPNs or free antivirus is definitely not, but VPNs are very inexpensive. Mine costs like $2 a month for 15 devices, you know, so it's not very not very expensive, but that protects your online connectivity no matter where you are.

If you're at a hotel again, Starbucks, McDonald's, acai, public Wi-Fi. I can't see what you're doing. We may be the offender in the same home to get with you or you know, somebody else on Wi-Fi with you. So antivirus and VPN are probably the first two things just in general safety for anything. Um, yeah. And then just go from there.

00:40:39.540 — 00:41:18.720 · Speaker 2

Well, and certain tools, I think, you know, a lot of people in the divorce universe encounter ideas and challenges and things they've never had to deal with. Right. So obviously, you're living your life one way. You never worried that your partner was going to, like, delete all your iCloud videos or get in there and hack and like, put up weird auto replies that say something inappropriate or some inappropriate picture of you to everybody in your address book, or crazy stuff they can do.

Now look, y'all, a lot of those can be crimes. It's not to say that those people won't ever get in trouble, and that if they do this stuff, it won't matter. In your divorce. We're just trying to even forget the consequences for those bad guys or bad gals.

00:41:18.760 — 00:41:19.400 · Speaker 3

That protect you.

00:41:19.600 — 00:42:54.090 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Protect you so it doesn't even happen. Um, I know we have this in common, too. Uh, the our family wizard tool. Absolutely. Uh, as such a good way to do some of this and, like, could. I mean, I have used our family wizard, and I say this for y'all. Uh, to y'all, it is the number one tool that really changed the whole course of my entire co-parenting experience, because my experience was where it wasn't tracking in that sort of thing, but it was, uh, a barrage of communications Often and kind of, you know, I wouldn't say always, but, you know, close to any message that would come in before our family wizard.

I might get it on four different email addresses, like my school and old personal one, my work, whatever, four different email, 3 or 4 email addresses, a text, a call, a FaceTime like there was nowadays. People have Instagram, all these different DMs and this huge plethora of communications coming at you at once.

Now, I couldn't have changed any passwords or anything to make that different, but that sort of protecting myself, our family wizard really became a shield for me against all of these different places, because it's one thing to get one message somewhere. It's another thing to get seven notifications simultaneously from someone who is giving you a hard time.

So can you talk to them a little bit about our family Wizard and how it helps in this space?

00:42:54.130 — 00:44:50.010 · Speaker 3

Absolutely right. You're absolutely correct. It's a really good tool to manage everything. As you said, everybody has multiple, you know, email addresses, multiple text messages, WhatsApp, whatever it may be. And going through a divorce process, you may forget where something actually is, you know, held at.

Is it in this account? Is this account? It's a lot of frustrations. So I think this was a co-parenting tool that basically simplifies everything. You put all your communications in one location, your calendars, one location. You make phone calls, you get FaceTime. All the information about the child is in the info bank.

So any money you know you're banking, all the information is in one spot. The best part of that is your your lawyer can actually help you walk through that because they have professional access instead of, you know, paying billable hours to, you know, return phone calls back and forth. They can log in and pull down the messages they need to go to court that day or whatever they need it for.

So it's it's a really cool system because it prevents a lot of things that I've been talking about so far, like the manipulation of text messages through spoofing. Ours is a closed messaging platform, which means no outside interference. So, you know, the attorney knows 100% that these messages were authentic.

They weren't changed. They weren't manipulated. Whatever happens in there occurs. Is one of them sent authenticated, whether it be custody, parenting time, you know, on the calendar, we know, you know, parenting time is there. Um, something pops up and you have let's just say you're you've arranged or you've agreed to Wednesday's for parenting time.

Well, this Wednesday hasn't come up. I was late for work. Something happened. In our future, you can do a trade swap request. I again, it's about documentation. I can't be there on Wednesday. Can I do on Thursday instead? Then your co-parent actually agrees or disagrees with that, but shows you're working together and it documents the whole process.

Or not or not exactly. Another really cool feature about that is, again, things are taking out of context all the time, maybe passive aggressive, or whether it be just communication. We have what's called a tone meter a.

00:44:50.010 — 00:44:51.010 · Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:51.010 — 00:45:16.110 · Speaker 3

So if you say something that you sounds perfectly okay to you. Just going to plug and say, hey, that might be a little aggressive. That's humiliating. So I'll give you a suggestion. This may sound better. You can still send whatever you want to send. It's just a suggestion, but it kind of prompts you into healthy communication.

We say all the time we're for the kids, not the conflict. We want to make sure this goes, you know, as smoothly as possible. You know, through the whole process and having everything documented well.

00:45:16.110 — 00:46:41.880 · Speaker 2

And the good thing about it is you've got one place to log in for all of this. And so you have to protect that one account instead of all 75 other ones. And I think a lot of people, I wanted us to spend a lot of time talking about that, because a lot of people don't even know that this is a thing, and it's hard to explain the value of it until you're in the middle of it and you really super need it, like the calendar feature you alluded to earlier, where in that calendar you can't make appointments for dates prior to right now, right?

You can't go in the past and that's, you know, even sometimes like, oh shoot, I forgot to put that thing on the calendar last week. I put it in a message. I need to add it. I mean, it's works both ways. I wasn't able to. And like fair um, because I hadn't thought thought about that part. And it allows your brain for me.

Um, we have a lot of other things to worry about. A lot of other things bugging you in divorce and custody drama. It gives it some rest in this one area. Like the expense log where you you submit. It looks like a check register, y'all. I love it. Um, you put in an expense and they either pay it or not. And now I haven't used this feature, but I think it even allows you to sync up bank accounts to actually make the payments go back and forth.

And even if y'all don't have a high conflict situation and you're not worried about all this stalking and all that other stuff, it's info bank is awesome. Because just for regular families, regular folks like kids medications, doctors, dentists like joint.

00:46:41.920 — 00:46:45.120 · Speaker 3

Pants, size, shirt size, shoe size, stuff like that. Yes.

00:46:45.160 — 00:48:32.040 · Speaker 2

Yeah. So I know in my custody, the custody part of my life, The the experts can also get logged in. So if you have a guardian ad litem or whatever they're called in your state, they can get professional access. And it was really important in my custody situation as these messages were coming in. Then the the expert working on the case got a notice and could review them in real time.

They could also experience what it was like for all those notifications to come through and see what that felt like. And because they're getting the same thing. So I find it super handy. I think a lot of people wait pretty late in the process to get this going. I know for me, it was a big reason why I filed a custody modification because my kids didn't live with me primarily at first when I got divorced.

And what happened was if I didn't answer the call exactly when they called, like even it wasn't a set time or anything, then, um, I wouldn't hear from them for like two days versus it's calendar in the and I call it Wizard. It's calendar and wizard. I always envisioned there's like an actual wizard with like a like very Harry Potter theme, very on brand for me.

And, um, to streamline that part. I mean, it was a big part of the reason why I went back on the custom modification. So I think if this area of all the stuff we're talking about gives them concern, be, you know, there's different levels of it. I think of of our family Wizard as a tool that you can use during the process and beyond.

Obviously anyone can, but it's probably not gonna come to you. But even once you're healthily co-parenting, it really gets everybody on the same page. You know, there's this whole, well, I didn't get that email right. OFW removes that part. It's right there for everybody to see. You didn't there's no I didn't get your email.

00:48:32.120 — 00:48:34.680 · Speaker 3

I think it's time stamp. The time you send it, the time you open it and read it.

00:48:34.680 — 00:49:04.890 · Speaker 2

Oh I love it. I love it that you can see when they viewed it like first viewed, you know, last opened or whatever. That part has been super handy. There are other tools like our Family Wizard, y'all I've looked at in my job as a lawyer. Um, and you can take a look. I'm trying to think of what the other ones are called.

Um, they're literally escaping me because all we ever recommend is our family wizard at the firm. Um, but there are some other ones. It's a paid version. You pay for, like, the year. Best money I spent. I'll pay for it till my kids are at least graduated. For sure.

00:49:04.930 — 00:49:47.990 · Speaker 3

Well, as of January of next year, they're all going to be paid. So all the competitors that are out there are all going to be paid out anyway with the free models. So it is it's and but again, if you're in a financial hardship situation, we have fee waivers. We can help you out with that process and actually give it to you for a reduced cost or even free in some cases.

So that way you can use all the tools that we have. Why dump it down? Like I said, your phone calls, everything you can be transcribed. Let's just say that there's an alienation allegation where, you know, when you're talking to the child through virtual parenting time, you know, mommy really doesn't like you or daddy doesn't like you.

Well that's recorded. Now we can actually record that and transcribe that for the attorney and be like, hey, this is what really actually occurred. So there's all kinds of features like that that are very useful. You may not need them right now, but they're useful in the end.

00:49:48.030 — 00:50:08.030 · Speaker 2

Well, and I love that because if that's part of the app and how it works, I bet lawyers and judges are a lot more accepting versus if you're just on your phone. Record a FaceTime and do that. They're gonna be like, why are you recording your kid? But within the app, within the wizard, I imagine. I don't know.

Do you have that experience or a lot more accepting of it in that situation?

00:50:08.070 — 00:50:42.990 · Speaker 3

They are because it's a it's a proven tool through the courts that they know it's 100% authenticated. We don't have to sell the judge. And the fact that this is a real video. Going back to your point earlier about deepfakes and the Tom cruise video, it's very easy to put your face on top of my face. And we actually I could become Hannah very quickly in an online setting, change my voice and everything.

So how do you know you're talking to your child? Our system is a closed system once again, so there's no outside manipulation. But that video you made through FaceTime or through Skype or whatever platform you use, it can be manipulated to something else or say something else. So that's why it's very useful.

00:50:43.030 — 00:52:44.520 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, y'all, I don't I don't want this episode to feel too overwhelming or scary a lot. Yeah. I mean, as I'm sitting here, I'm just feeling that of like, oh my God, oh my God. So look, if you're in a situation with someone who has a penchant to need to know all your things, who's controlling, who can sometimes be gray area when it comes to behaviors and you know, other people's right to privacy and where they, you know, is the person you're married to, the sort who might go through your phone without you knowing.

Um, then they might be the sort of person who's going to who's going to take steps to continue to know, because that that pulling back of control when you remove their ability to control you, when you call your power back, the people who benefited from you deferring your power and handing your power off to them will.

There will be a clawing and a gnashing of teeth and they will freak out. And a lot of times that person can't even help themselves from doing the freak out. And so I guess I would say those of us who you're not in the middle of a crazy situation, you don't want to roll your eyes. Mike, this is not for me. You still want to make sure, you know, probably the best advice is don't create these joint account situations going forward.

Just because you're in a dating relationship does not mean you need to share a Spotify login or whatever. Nest login, whatever. Get your own. See if there's a way to both of you get access to the accounts with different logins. I mean, that's just good sense, but for those of you who know when we're talking, like something in your heart says, hmm, this is sounds like something that would be in my life, something that would be happening or could happen to you.

That's a good reason for you to stop. And I would guess, like at minimum, reach out to your lawyer and explain to them your feelings. Hopefully you vetted someone who will hear you out and not just roll their eyes like you're being crazy. Um, and listen to you about what's going on so you could get help and support.

And Stephen, can they follow you any place in particular?

00:52:44.560 — 00:53:42.740 · Speaker 3

I think for me on LinkedIn anyway, they want to find me. That's typically the way social media I use. I'm not a big fan of social media in general, but you always find me on LinkedIn or through our family wizard after the Wizard is a great, wonderful tool. Again, we're here for them through the whole process.

And again, as soon as you think you. We have healthy families use our family wizard every day. It's a great tool to organize your lives. So what the kids are doing, doctor's appointments, things like that. Again, the info bank, you have all the information in one place. So no matter where you are in the process, you look at the tool, look at the tool, see if it's right for you again, if you think something's happening, it may be.

And again, I know back to your point. This is a lot of information. It can be scary to some aspects, but for those of you that are going through a situation that it is contentious or you think some things are happening, just just know that we see you. We know that it's happening. You're not crazy. These things do occur quite often and find yourself that professional like yourself.

For myself, that can actually walk you through that process and get you to get you the information you need or the direction you need.

00:53:42.780 — 00:54:32.180 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And one little bit at a time. Rome wasn't built in a day. You didn't create this, like, enmeshed technological world in a day. And we're not going to go do everything right now because you're stressed out and want to like you, you know, out, out damn spot for for that, for yourself. So let's remember to do one little bit at a time.

You gotta you gotta do one step at a time before you just try to like, awash all of your internet and then tip them off. And then you're in a whole different world of problems. Okay, Stephen. So we have a few questions that we ask every guest. I'm very curious about your answers. The first one is the name of the show is not saving it for later.

Everybody listening in common has this this idea right there. We're just not waiting to live our real lives. And what I found is that little title is evocative and brings out a thought in someone when you heard the title, or as you set down, anything come up for you, is there anything you save for later?

00:54:32.220 — 00:55:03.800 · Speaker 3

Well, that's the thing. Tomorrow is never promised. You know, something that, you know, I could walk out of here and get hit by a bus. Nothing's ever promised. So I always try to say, don't wait. Don't sit on it. If it's something you know, if you want to try something, try something new. You know, try something that's different for you.

Just live your life. I mean, we we always try to live through somebody else's lens or somebody else's, you know, thoughts, but they're going to think about whatever. So it makes you happy. Then do it. Yeah. That's what I kind of. That's why I've learned through my experiences, through my divorce. Things like that is, you know, you just have to take chances and just, you know, just try.

00:55:03.920 — 00:56:00.370 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, the guests that we've had so far this season have been sort of split, like convicted about some of the things that they say for later. Like mine always has to do. Like it every morning. I think this thought about which spoon I'm going to use is so dumb, but I'm like, I literally have a dishwasher and have more spoons, but I, I am tempted to use the most plentiful spoons so that I can save the other ones for later.

Right? And then there's the other sorts of like I don't save anything for later. Later is lie. That's literally one of our our friends of the show said, and I think that it's it's interesting that it's kind of split. Okay. Another one. One thing I've found in talking with people is that over a few days, a few weeks, you know, a period of time, there is one main thought that's been circling in their mind, one dominant thing, maybe something they're worried about, something they're noodling on, something they're thinking about.

Have you had a dominant thought here lately?

00:56:00.410 — 00:56:43.590 · Speaker 3

Actually I have, and it actually comes back to a lot of what I do and what we do, whatever is actually building a network of professionals to actually understand technology. Because, again, doing this for many years and having so many even clients on the side, you know, expert clients, you know, most people just don't they don't understand what this actually entails becomes a technology and divorce.

We think divorces is as simple as custody. It's banking, it's whatever. But in today's digital age, you know, trying to find somebody that you can work with. So that's been big on my mind, is actually putting together a network of professionals to actually understand And technology can help walk you through the process, but that's something that's just been kind of beating around my head, trying to figure out how to come up with that and actually how to move forward on it.

00:56:43.630 — 00:56:45.310 · Speaker 2

Well, fancy meeting you here.

00:56:45.430 — 00:56:46.630 · Speaker 4

How about that?

00:56:47.110 — 00:57:02.390 · Speaker 2

Okay. Um, okay. The next one is what's shaking you. So is there any sort of like, book, movie, TV show quote you saw on Instagram, anything like that that's kind of been been stuck in your head lately?

00:57:02.430 — 00:57:36.890 · Speaker 3

AI AI is one of those things that, again, technology is a dual edged sword. Technology is created for good but can be used for bad things. AI scares me. I think it's a wonderful tool. I love ChatGPT like everybody else does. I use it on a regular basis, but the future of AI is something that really kind of rattles me.

You know, when the Godfather of AI steps away after his Nobel speech and says, hey, you know, I don't want anything to do with AI because of the pitfalls that could happen without regulation. That's what scares me. That's what keeps me up at night. Is is tomorrow. It's not today. Technology changes literally by the minute.

And with AI, you know, we don't know what.

00:57:37.050 — 00:57:38.090 · Speaker 2

By the nanosecond.

00:57:38.130 — 00:57:38.850 · Speaker 4

Exactly.

00:57:38.850 — 00:57:41.650 · Speaker 3

So that's my biggest thing that I lose sleep over.

00:57:41.690 — 00:57:54.930 · Speaker 2

Yeah. You want to get, um, scared real fast. You can read or watch some of the futurist stuff about AI. Um, I, I just don't and go on trying to do the best I can right now because it will get me. I could just sit in a corner and be like.

00:57:54.930 — 00:57:56.290 · Speaker 4

Yeah, oh my God.

00:57:56.490 — 00:58:07.490 · Speaker 2

Um, okay, last question. If you could only give one piece of advice to the women of divorced land who are before, during and after divorce, what would that piece of advice be?

00:58:07.530 — 00:58:36.900 · Speaker 3

It's going to be okay. That's the biggest advice. It's going to be okay. It's a scary situation going through it. We've both been there, but it's going to be okay. You know, you look back in this, maybe this was for me. I'm not sure about you, but you always look back. You know, it's the scariest thing as you went through it a minute.

But when you look back a year later, even six months later, it's the best thing you ever did. It's one of those things that if you feel like you're not with your person, then find your person and take that step and be happy. Be you. And that's the biggest thing. But it's going to be okay.

00:58:36.940 — 00:58:37.380 · Speaker 4

Yeah.

00:58:37.540 — 01:00:13.240 · Speaker 2

You know, when you're in the middle of it, you really do cling to that. And especially people who've already gone through this. And when they tell you that, like, your kids are going to be okay. Eventually your kids are going to figure it out. One day you're going to be okay. You're going to find somebody again, etc..

That advice, I know that at different points sometimes that's all I had to cling on to, is like belief from those people who'd been through it that that was true. And one thing I'd add to that is as many people as I've talked to in my life and I've talked to a few and clients have represented everything else.

It's not something you hear that someone says, man, I really wished I didn't get divorced. Man, I really wished I didn't. I don't know, it doesn't really come up. And I think that's because there's that, um, Louis C.K. bit where he's talking about how how every divorce is good news because happy marriages don't end in divorce.

and I know he went through a whole thing, but that always stuck with me when people were talking about getting divorced. I know this up close in my own life, and besides what I do for my job, people tell me getting divorced like, dang, that's you know what I have to say? It's not bad news. It it is some big news.

But generally speaking, you just. And everybody think about that for a second. Do you hear anybody in your life who sits around saying, man, I wished I didn't get divorced? No, because people get divorced, especially if there's kids involved. When all other avenues weren't working out like they've tried.

For the most part, they tried to make it work. They try to get their needs met and it wasn't happening. And it frees them up to go do something different.

01:00:13.280 — 01:00:25.680 · Speaker 3

Well, I think that protecting their kids or protecting somebody else, protecting their family or protecting somebody else's feelings, what about your feelings? You're a person. You matter too. So again. But your kids will be okay. You'll be okay. It's just it's a process we have to go through, unfortunately.

01:00:25.720 — 01:00:25.920 · Speaker 4

Yeah.

01:00:25.920 — 01:02:49.970 · Speaker 2

I love you said that. I, I think so many women are conditioned too quick to ride ourselves out of our own story. And if you ask a woman why she got divorced, I would say 9.9 out of ten times she's going to talk to you. Something about why it was good for everybody else, why she was justified in doing so. Because and people want a reason, because he cheated on me.

Because the kids weren't safe. Because what all these reasons and I do want to just put out there that like, it's a fully legitimate reason to say because I wasn't the meanest me that I could be in the context of that relationship. And that is enough. Like the fact that I wasn't happy, that I wasn't thriving, that this relationship no longer served me, is enough of a reason to get divorced.

Now, when you layer on moralizing, you can just go on my social media, which I'm I hear you like you can only find me only comic. You can find me on everywhere all the time. And just look in some of those comments and one the other day was like, shouldn't these people have thought about this beforehand and I'm like, dude, are you?

Have you never made a decision? That seemed like a really good idea at the time. And then later things changed and it wasn't. And I think that we can give ourselves some compassion and a break that the decisions we made for, you know, one, five, ten, 20, 40 years ago, that person and this person have different goals, have different experiences, have different resources, have different thoughts.

Maybe they have different values and different morals. And I don't know, it's my firm belief that and I mean, I don't I don't I mean I guess it's a central tenet of my life. Central belief is I believe our job is to become the the US. I'm supposed to become the me as me, and you're supposed to become the US. You.

And that's it. And as we become that, we're living into our purpose and we're living into our joy and our pleasure and happiness and whatever. And for a lot of people, when they start on that journey to do that, they realize they're in a marriage that doesn't support it. And wouldn't it be great if they can be on that journey in the context of a healthy, supportive marriage?

I am now so I know what the difference is. I can be, and we can both grow and change and and, you know, grow together. But some people are not in that situation. And thank God there is divorce to give you an off ramp to a completely different future.

01:02:49.970 — 01:03:07.290 · Speaker 3

People change. And that's just it. Whether it be yourself changing or your partner changing, people change. And where we were five years ago or 15 or 20 years ago, like you said, it's not where we are today. Different goals, different beliefs, different whatever it may be. So yeah, just follow your heart and we say be the best.

You be the best you can be.

01:03:07.330 — 01:03:07.730 · Speaker 4

Yeah.

01:03:07.730 — 01:03:18.090 · Speaker 2

Well thank you, Mr. Tech cowboy yourself. Thanks for doing this with us. And we'll put the information where people can get to you on LinkedIn and maybe catch you at a conference or something coming up sometime.

01:03:18.130 — 01:03:18.930 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. Thank you very.

01:03:18.930 — 01:03:19.970 · Speaker 4

Much. Thank you.