CHRISTOPER FINAL .txt

English (US)

01:00:00.160 — 01:01:23.620 · Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to Not Saving It for later. I'm your host, Hannah Henry Bell. This is the podcast supporting women through divorce and beyond. Let's be honest, most of us are taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown, later when the timing is right, later when you finally stop caring what they think.

Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Henry Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage. This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. The place where we stop whispering about what's hard and start talking about what's real marriage, divorce, money, motherhood, faith, sex.

Power. No filters, no fake empowerment BS, just straight talk and practical truth for women who are done pretending that everything's fine because your next chapter isn't waiting on permission and neither are we. And today we are with my good friend and trusted business advisor, Christopher Anderson.

And he goes by the name Christopher. I think that's really hard for people to get, like, nobody does the whole name.

01:01:23.620 — 01:01:25.580 · Speaker 2

I know, except for Christopher Robin.

01:01:25.660 — 01:01:31.580 · Speaker 3

Yes. For instance, which is actually one of the root causes of my name. So really? Yes. Yeah.

01:01:31.580 — 01:01:32.620 · Speaker 1

That's from Winnie the Pooh, right?

01:01:32.660 — 01:01:33.900 · Speaker 3

That's right. Yeah.

01:01:34.060 — 01:01:55.060 · Speaker 1

Um, a good Winnie the Pooh reference is always welcome. Um, so, uh, Christopher is, um, helps me with stuff, with the law firm, with my mindset, and really just kind of most of the things. Most days I'm asking him something. Um, and so is an obvious choice for me, for him to join us and talk to the women of Divorce land.

01:01:55.180 — 01:01:55.660 · Speaker 2

Um.

01:01:56.060 — 01:02:06.190 · Speaker 1

Yeah. And here's the thing. So, Christopher, um, has a law firm in Colorado. Right. You want to tell us a little bit about sort of what you do and besides helping me?

01:02:06.230 — 01:02:06.710 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

01:02:06.710 — 01:02:23.470 · Speaker 3

So in addition to helping Hannah, I help lots of other family law firms and, and some other kinds of law firms as well across the country. Um, and in doing that, one of my big beliefs that very few people who do what I do do is I

01:02:24.510 — 01:03:28.530 · Speaker 3

have to test everything on myself. Um, so I do run, uh, I own and operate a law firm, uh, out of Colorado. Um, that does family law as well. Um, I've done family law. My first family law firm, I opened in 2004 when I became managing partner of an existing firm, but like, really expanded the family law department there.

But it was a full service firm. Um, and, uh, and so it's in my blood, it's it's something I've done for a really long time. Um, I don't even know if I've ever really shared this with you, but like that, my love for it. My my direction towards it comes out of my time as a prosecutor. When I was in the Bronx DA's office in New York City, I was a senior assistant district attorney in the Domestic Violence and Sex Crimes Bureau and specialized there in crimes against children, which is a really difficult, horrific thing to do, but like, really, really necessary, but like it really led to like my passion for helping families and and so it's kind of been a through line through everything that I do.

01:03:28.610 — 01:03:31.210 · Speaker 1

Well. And it's personal for you too, right?

01:03:31.410 — 01:04:21.380 · Speaker 3

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, child of divorce, first of all. I mean, I think that's, um, probably a root cause there to child of divorce. Um, that was not a good split. Um, and from a, you know, went with the mom who made the decision to forego support for go. Um, this was back before courts were like, no, you can't, you know, forego support, forego everything just to have her kids.

She just wanted her kids out of the situation and was willing to walk away from everything. Um, and, uh, and then one of the things I think that really has also helped to form and formulate the law firm in Colorado, because we created this law firm in Colorado, Clean Sheet, in 2001. We just said this. There has to be a better way.

01:04:21.420 — 01:04:22.460 · Speaker 2

To 2001.

01:04:22.620 — 01:05:19.399 · Speaker 3

2021. Sorry. Thank you. Yeah. Um, for for people of my age, um, 1980 was 20 years ago. Um, just so we're all clear. Um, and, uh. Yeah. So 2021, we we took our first client, and, but we created it during the pandemic, basically, and said, there's got to be a better way to do this. And, um, the, the, the, the idea behind that was that we wanted to focus on people's futures.

and rather than the current fight and really lead with coaching, which, as you know, something I'd gotten myself doing in the between 20 tens really started a really big coaching part of my career. And so I said, let's bring that into family law. Let's help people by not being embroiled today, by not getting caught up in what the wrong was yesterday, but what

01:05:20.440 — 01:05:29.120 · Speaker 3

are the futures that they want to run towards? What what is it that they're working towards? What is what is it that can draw them forward rather than keep them held back?

01:05:29.160 — 01:06:04.650 · Speaker 1

And you know, one of the things I think, Christopher, that we have in common for sure is like doing this like you just described, mission driven, you know, child of divorce, divorce yourself. Obviously, I'm divorced and been through the whole thing. Um, and I think that, I mean, it's why we work so well together too, is the focus on on people in the middle of the.

Hello. Hence this podcast. Right. Trying to bring stuff to people that maybe they wouldn't otherwise have access to or know about. And so we talk about family law stuff all the time. Right. And we're just purpose driven, mission driven people to really help. I mean, you know, your what's your whole your whole mission, right?

To change the way.

01:06:04.650 — 01:06:41.609 · Speaker 3

You change the way people resolve conflicts. That people, not business is not really the way that people resolve conflicts and family laws. What better place to start than that? I realize you asked me about mine. Also. Like what? I went into the law firm and into the prosecutorial career and my my mom's divorce.

But like, yes, I like one of the cool things that was part of the birth of newly family, which is the name of the law firm in Colorado, is the contrast between my divorce and my current wife's divorce, who was also my law partner. Um, and

01:06:42.810 — 01:07:05.670 · Speaker 3

really seeing the contrast between the way it can be and the way it usually is, um, or and really, quite honestly, hers is worse than the way it usually is. Um, but the way it can be, the way that that I experienced it was I was very fortunate to have an ex who was willing to join me in being, no matter how

01:07:06.790 — 01:07:07.910 · Speaker 3

family pissed off.

01:07:08.350 — 01:07:10.270 · Speaker 2

This job is. Very. Okay. Okay. I've said.

01:07:10.310 — 01:07:11.950 · Speaker 1

I've said lots of bad words on.

01:07:11.950 — 01:07:12.790 · Speaker 2

Here already. Okay.

01:07:13.150 — 01:07:16.710 · Speaker 3

Pissed off at me. Um, and

01:07:17.990 — 01:07:27.830 · Speaker 3

really, you know, feeling very hurt about the the split, but was willing to put all of that aside and say, we've got a kid up.

01:07:27.950 — 01:07:28.190 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

01:07:28.230 — 01:07:31.710 · Speaker 3

And we're both. The only thing we're going to focus on is

01:07:32.830 — 01:07:35.589 · Speaker 3

the best interest of this child. And

01:07:37.430 — 01:09:19.100 · Speaker 3

it just opened my eyes to how amazing that can be, because not just for us, which was pretty cool. I mean, we actually were able to put aside a lot of stuff and become friends, which we are today. Um, but to watch the child who at the time was he was getting 3 to 4 like he was three years old when we started, four years old when we finished.

And to watch him then grow up without any of that. Who do I choose? Energy without any of that? If I love what dad's doing, I'm betraying mom. Or if I love what mom's doing, I'm betraying dad. Um, if I want to go, I'm a pilot. If I want to go flying with dad. I'm leaving mom on her own. If I want to go hang out at mom's veterinary clinic, I'm leaving dad alone.

Um. And just none of that. Like, none of that at all. And like to see that blossom in a kid who, you know, in so many other circumstances would be ripped apart by this has been a blessing and allowed us to make decisions like, let's live a mile away from each other so we can go back and forth really easy. It made us it enabled us to make decisions like when he wasn't going to flourish in his current school district.

For us to collaborate on which one of us was going to move to, to the school district where he would flourish. Um, and, and just make all that happen. And it just, you know, that led me to believe that really, um, focusing on that future and focusing on the things that really matter rather than the current fight, enables people to put aside a lot of stuff that listen.

01:09:20.540 — 01:09:30.020 · Speaker 3

There are situations where, I mean, where there's abuse, where there's other reasons why it's not going to be. Let's all join hands.

01:09:30.060 — 01:09:34.580 · Speaker 1

And so because sometimes there's one person, a scorched earth, they will burn it down and the house with you in.

01:09:34.580 — 01:09:56.200 · Speaker 3

It, it takes to first of all right. You can't to to get the result that that I'm talking about it takes to you got to play. You got to both be playing all in. That being said, if one person is scorched earth and you know this, but that doesn't mean that the right counter to that is scorched earth. Um, because.

01:09:56.240 — 01:10:01.040 · Speaker 1

The right counter is gray rock. Yeah, yeah. Is nothing steady?

01:10:01.080 — 01:10:26.840 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Quite possibly. And but from my perspective, the other the other counter is like, that's if what this side's if I'm, if I'm working with someone who's not the scorched earth person because I don't. Right. If that's what somebody wants, I refer them, um, every time. Um, but if I'm working with someone who's the other side of scorched earth, what we try to do is work together to say, okay, listen, they're going to be them.

We're going to let them do them.

01:10:29.000 — 01:11:11.290 · Speaker 3

In that environment, what does your future look like? And just start working on building that and not responding in kind, but responding in ways that move you towards where you want to be, where where the spouse that we're working with wants to be. I know we're talking this your podcast is for women. So if I'm representing the woman, um, in that divorce and it's not, you know, I'll be fair.

Like, it's not always the one side or the other. That's the scorched earth side, but it probably does lean, um, one way. Um, but regardless, it's like, it's so liberating to say, let's not get caught up in the fight because that's what they want, right? Um.

01:11:12.290 — 01:11:13.770 · Speaker 1

And don't wrestle with the pig.

01:11:13.890 — 01:11:14.930 · Speaker 3

I was just saying that quote.

01:11:14.930 — 01:11:16.810 · Speaker 1

But you'll both get dirty in one of you. You'll like it.

01:11:16.850 — 01:11:24.770 · Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah. Never, never wrestle with pig because, yeah, you both get get completely muddy. Well, and it goes a little bit further. You both get muddy.

01:11:25.890 — 01:11:56.990 · Speaker 3

Pretty soon nobody will be able to tell you from the pig, and the pig likes it. Um, um, and it's that middle one that nobody will be able to tell you from the pig that people lose. Right? Because let's let's remember this isn't just our client and us and the other side and their lawyer, but there's a mediator.

There's a in Colorado, there's a thing called a child family investigator. Um,

01:11:58.550 — 01:12:19.750 · Speaker 3

there's a judge. There are third parties looking, and they get an hour or two hours, or maybe if it's really a, you know, a longer term professional eight hours to look and observe and evaluate and make decisions about your whole future life and the future life of your kids. And if they can't tell you from the pick,

01:12:21.550 — 01:12:25.670 · Speaker 3

they're not they're not taking the time to dig deeper, to scrape the mud off.

01:12:25.670 — 01:12:48.480 · Speaker 1

And I think the thing about that is, it is such a long game to not get muddy. And like what we're talking about, y'all, is to, you know, tit for tat. They did this. So he did this. So I'm going to do this. And in the moment it's very unsatisfying.

01:12:49.560 — 01:13:01.920 · Speaker 1

And it's the definition of like short term pain. And I mean pain but like frustration. There's lots of other words for long term gain. I know for myself sort of in dealing with this situation,

01:13:03.360 — 01:16:09.410 · Speaker 1

I luckily had the wisdom of being a lawyer, although knew at it when I was going through my, um, custody case. But I did have the sense to understand how this would play out over time. And I think that people lose sight of the way court, or they just don't know at all how court and stuff works. The saying the wheels of justice turn slowly is there for a reason.

It's like it takes a long time for all of this stuff to play out. So, like, I think when you're in the middle of it and you're new to this, everything feels urgent and right now and or else. And I got to call my lawyer today because he said this one annoying thing. You know, at the time, it feels like such a big deal.

And if you're able to zoom out and take the benefit of what we're telling you, take the benefit for me of being a lawyer and seeing how it played out. At the time, I was doing employment law and seeing like, okay, when a judge looks at this, I need to be able to string together an entire course of performance, right?

Like that's in contract law. They talk about your course of performance, right? So string together this entire course of performance that shows that I'm the steady one. I am the one who can put the kid's needs first. I'm the one who's gonna. You can trust. At least in Texas, we'd say to look out for the best interest of the children.

And I think that it's very difficult to do that, especially in the middle of the divorce, because your nervous system, ladies, is most likely completely dysregulated. And that's a lot of talk, like, what's a nervous system? What does dysregulated mean? So the way I think about it is when you feel unmoored, unbalanced, unstable, unsteady, and like, you're right, it's sort of like when you're in.

I remember this all the time. When I was a little kid at the van public swimming pool to to go in the deep end, you had to swim across. And I remember when I first was doing the swim across, there was a little girl next to me and were swimming across, and all of a sudden, midway in the middle, she got scared and couldn't keep going.

And so she was pulling me down and using me as like her rap. You know, I'm I'm, you know, like little and barely making it across myself, like, yeah, it's very scary. Um, that's to me how a dysregulated or unregulated. How would you say that nervous system feels like you're like in the middle of the pool and you're you're pushing everything down around you.

You're pulling you might be pulling from, you know, some new, special someone at work. You're talking to wine, other kinds of drugs, a best friend, whatever you can get. Watching that new TV show and getting obsessed, staying up till 3:00 in the morning, obsessing over to over every text message he sent you.

Right. And I think that, like, what happens in the problem for people who are in the starting it or in the middle of it, or like I think you you ease out of this in some ways, but you're having to make the most rational, best decision for your long term when in the short term, you need somebody to keep you up in the middle of the swimming pool because you're going under.

Right. And I think that it takes so much discipline and so much fortitude and so much like faith and trust, that doing the right thing over the long term will eventually win out, because in the moment it feels like they're getting away with it.

01:16:09.450 — 01:16:10.090 · Speaker 3

That's right.

01:16:10.130 — 01:16:47.470 · Speaker 1

And your people in your life will say, I remember my mom saying to me, um, you know, he gets away with everything. He gets away with everything. And I would have to be the one. And, you know, just as the lawyer, I had the leg up in this to be like, look, he thinks so, right? And in this moment, sure. But I'm not going to get dirty, right?

By fighting down in the middle of this mud. My goal was to try to be. It is is currently a steady and straight line. So if you look at any message I ever sent or you look at anything I ever said or whatever, because I'm always operating under the assumption I'm being recorded.

01:16:47.510 — 01:16:48.630 · Speaker 3

Yes. And you should.

01:16:48.670 — 01:17:01.510 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I'm always operating under the assumption, uh, Sue Hall, this lawyer down in San Antonio, told my law school class, pretend that everything you ever write, you're going to see it on the jumbotron at the Spurs game. Okay, so that's how I thought about everything. I would write and I.

01:17:01.590 — 01:17:02.470 · Speaker 3

Could play concert.

01:17:02.590 — 01:17:02.870 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:17:02.950 — 01:17:03.910 · Speaker 3

Oh, Lord.

01:17:04.030 — 01:17:53.920 · Speaker 1

Oh, that whole thing. Um, and keeping that steadiness in the middle of it so that you don't get dirty. But but, Christopher, I think that I personally am am don't struggle with mental health issues like natural like I have a lot of legs up to do this. So like do you have any thoughts for people who are in that space and in the middle of it when it feels really shitty and really hard, and he is like doing this thing and won't let the kids go to the homecoming thing because it's on his weekend.

And he said no, because don't you know, you know, it's his birthday or whatever. It's like, how? What advice do you have for women who are in the middle of it? And they're against someone who is bi scorched earth, y'all? We mean, scorched earth is where they're willing. I think of it like they're literally willing to burn instead of like, there's a house, pretend they're willing to burn the house down, and neither one of you get it versus like, you.

01:17:53.920 — 01:17:58.560 · Speaker 3

Get it exactly. It. Yeah, they prefer to burn your stuff down, but they'll burn their own stuff down, too.

01:17:58.600 — 01:17:59.760 · Speaker 1

If they have to. Yeah.

01:18:00.000 — 01:18:36.140 · Speaker 3

So it's so funny that you ask it the way you did because as you were explaining your experience, like I was looking at you going like, yeah, I wish that most of our clients were able to find that center, um, and see that through line. It's hard. It's hard. And, and because the one thing you left out and I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but I'm sure it's happened to your clients Is the one thing you left out was the other side the spouse.

In this case, the husband. Right. Actually, saying your lawyer is not doing anything.

01:18:36.300 — 01:18:37.220 · Speaker 1

Oh. The wedge.

01:18:37.340 — 01:18:42.340 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Your lawyer, your lawyer. You know what? My lawyer said that your lawyer is not even responding to emails.

01:18:42.380 — 01:18:52.500 · Speaker 1

Yeah, my lawyer said that. Your lawyer that everybody thinks your lawyer is like, you know, stupid or an idiot or, you know, my lawyer said that's the wedge driver. That's just one of their tools.

01:18:52.540 — 01:18:56.980 · Speaker 3

Yeah, but but it's that to me, that's one of the most powerful. Right?

01:18:57.020 — 01:18:58.540 · Speaker 1

Because before we.

01:18:58.540 — 01:19:18.260 · Speaker 4

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01:19:18.300 — 01:19:19.660 · Speaker 1

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01:19:20.900 — 01:20:50.810 · Speaker 1

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01:20:53.170 — 01:21:48.390 · Speaker 3

They are undermining, like you're talking about swimming in the middle of the pool. By the way, earlier thing when I was in high school, I was a lifeguard. So like, that's very real to me. Yeah. Um, and one of the things they teach you as a lifeguard is actually never to approach the drowning swimmer because even a small, much smaller person will pull you down.

Um, because that's, you know, that's. And that's why I say I wish that they could find the center. But going back to that thought, like being in the middle of that pool. The amount of panic. The amount of strength with which you will pull the people around you down is immense. And and it's exacerbated by your own current fears, is exacerbated by your husband saying or your soon to be ex.

I like I say, the x TV. Okay, um, putting words in your ears about what your lawyer is not doing or about what he got away with. Nanny, nanny, do do you know, and

01:21:49.910 — 01:22:00.710 · Speaker 3

and just making you feel even smaller and more helpless and more helpless. That's what it's about. That's what it's all about. And so. So let me just finish that thought. Because

01:22:01.750 — 01:22:02.710 · Speaker 3

to me,

01:22:03.910 — 01:22:43.080 · Speaker 3

I can't I don't feel like I have the power to help you find that center like that. Like, say, listen, trust me, this is a long game. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And if you just, like, just let it roll off your back, you can't even hear it. You can't even hear it. So instead, I think the solution to getting there.

Not it's not an instant panacea is. First of all, you do have to say you got to trust me. If we can't trust each other. And then the first agreement I try to make with people even before it ever comes up, as I say, let's. One agreement I need from you is that you're going to stop taking legal advice from your husband.

Okay?

01:22:43.440 — 01:23:30.380 · Speaker 1

Well, because they get I think women are so slow to realize this and and just talk with my husband drew over the years, too. He's like, I do not understand this about women where they are getting divorced. They're telling this, dude, you know, I'm gone, screw you in the horse you wrote in on I'm leaving. And also, by the way, I'm taking half your stuff and oh, by the way, these kids are coming with me.

You're going to pay me money every month, and then they're saying all this essentially to this person and and severing this bond of trust, yet still acting as if they're in this fiduciary relationship, marriage relationship, and still taking advice from the person you're trying to take half their stuff, like.

What do you mean that you're listening to what he said? Are you kidding me?

01:23:30.420 — 01:23:30.860 · Speaker 3

Yeah, but they.

01:23:30.860 — 01:23:32.580 · Speaker 1

Do all the time. All the time.

01:23:32.620 — 01:24:21.590 · Speaker 3

And then. So. So to me, it's the first of all the shoring up. Like, don't take it by saying, please try to trust me, but then you have to just like a drowning person or a love just kind of abuse this metaphor. Um, you got to throw a lifeline, right? You don't approach the drowning victim. What you do is you put something in front of them they can grab on to.

That's what you do. So that's what. That's why there are rings right at swimming pools or in boats. That's why they have the longer tubes. The the. Why am I forgetting what the lifebuoy I think it's called. Um, that's why you'll see lifeguards carrying ropes like all sorts of things. And they have these big sticks with hooks on the end, all these things to give a lifeline without putting yourself in danger.

So what's the biggest lifeline? And this is why we start. Why I think is so important. The biggest lifeline is where are you going?

01:24:21.950 — 01:24:22.590 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:24:23.150 — 01:25:34.090 · Speaker 3

Give and buy by the word give. I don't mean like I give them a future. Like I'm going to imagine a future for you. It's give them the gift of a conversation without judgment of what life looks like two years from now. So one year, the divorce might take up to a year, maybe longer, and then a year after that and things have gone the way they wish they would.

What does that look like? And I'm talking about in detail. Right. Talk about what exactly where you're going to live. Talk about exactly what your relationship is going to be like with your children. What are your relationships going to be like with your ex, what your relationship is going to be like with his family?

What his relationship is going to be like with your family, what the kids. Relationships with both sets of grandparents are going to be where are you going to work? Like, how far away is it? Are you commuting? Are you not working? Um. Where are the kids going? To school. Detail. Detail. Detail. Like, have a really detailed brainstorming about that future and then say you want that, then let's work towards that.

01:25:34.130 — 01:25:37.490 · Speaker 1

You're basically teaching them how to manifest. Yeah. As they say.

01:25:37.650 — 01:26:03.689 · Speaker 3

Yeah. To some extent. Yeah. To some extent. Just to put an anchor out there so that we can say, are we moving towards it and with permission to change it at any time. I think it's like a little early in the conversation actually, to be manifestation right? At first it's just ideation. It's just which way do you want to move?

Um, because

01:26:05.090 — 01:26:14.790 · Speaker 3

let's face it, when most people come to us as family lawyers, they are either running away from something or

01:26:15.910 — 01:26:46.270 · Speaker 3

embroiled in a conflict. And so they're either just loving the fight. And I don't mean loving like, oh boy, I really like to fight. But they're like, they're there. The fight is what their life is or something that they need to get away from. They've identified something they need to get away from. They may have known it for ten years, but they've made the decision that they need to get away from it.

But they've given very little thought to. To where? Where am I going? Away. Seems good enough. But the truth is, the way is never good enough.

01:26:46.310 — 01:28:29.580 · Speaker 1

Well, it's like. I mean, same thought. We didn't even talk about this before, but, um, in the divorce prep guide thing that I made, that the the women can get through the circle of my confident life circle that we, we started in there. The first thing I do is say start with the end in mind. Like, you gotta know where it's just like, you know, a ship without a compass is lost at sea.

Like, where are we headed? Where are we trying to get to? Because if you don't care where you get to. Anyway, we'll get you there. You can do your divorce any which way. But if you're trying to get to that future like you and your ex-wife were able to create where you put the child first, you're able to remain free.

You're going to behave differently in your divorce. If you're truly trying to craft that future, you're going to be less about, how can I get the most for me and get the least for them? And your conversation might be with your lawyer and with your own self. Be like, look. Or when well-intentioned family and friends are like, you know what?

You should take everything. Take them to the cleaners, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And instead you're like, you know, I'm really working towards this future. Like, you talk about helping them create like we do in the in the guide and getting really clear on where are we headed. And then say, look, I'm I'm headed to a really positive co-parenting experience.

So I'm not trying to screw him over. I'm trying to be fair. And what is you know, the law requires and allows. And on the plus side of fair like, that's if people can do it. That's definitely the way to get divorced, if at all possible. Like you said, it requires two. Um, but I think that that step, that lifeline, um, that, you know, it sounds like you help the clients to do and that we do in the guide is like, okay, can you get really clear on where you're headed?

01:28:29.620 — 01:29:02.020 · Speaker 3

Yeah. And that part to me that doesn't take to the really great outcomes. Take two. But I don't want anybody to hear like if the other side is not willing to play that then forget that. Forget the future thing like that. That's not it. It's that takes one and yeah. Oh my gosh. You just like you brought up like the well my, my aunt Paula's friend Dot, she got this and this and that and that other thing and like and so and you're not fighting enough for me because of that.

01:29:02.060 — 01:29:11.110 · Speaker 1

It's usually like the guy clients who's cousin? For me, it feels like. Well, my cousin. Like your cousin is lying to you, buddy. That did not happen. No, we did not.

01:29:11.390 — 01:29:23.629 · Speaker 3

Right. And exactly. But they might believe it. And rather than attack the belief, attack the process. Like you know what? That might be true. But here's what you're going to have to do

01:29:24.910 — 01:29:29.630 · Speaker 3

to achieve the possibility of that goal. And

01:29:30.870 — 01:29:58.190 · Speaker 3

here's what it's going to cost you. And I don't mean just like in what you're going to pay me, but you'll pay me more, um, and you'll probably pay someone else more because I might not ride with you on that bus. Um, but you're going to. Your children are going to pay. You're going to pay in aggravation, and you're going to pay the most.

And when you achieve all those goals that to be like your cousin,

01:29:59.750 — 01:30:01.630 · Speaker 3

you're not going to end up where you want to be,

01:30:02.710 — 01:30:09.050 · Speaker 3

right? Your life is not going to be the life you designed. It's going to be whatever life is a result of

01:30:10.490 — 01:30:32.090 · Speaker 3

getting down in the mud. Going back to that analogy. Um, and and that's why the future painting, the future manifestation is so crucial because it clarifies what you're really trying to do. We're not trying to achieve the same results as my cousin. We're trying to achieve the results I want.

01:30:32.130 — 01:33:10.260 · Speaker 1

Well, the way I think about it is in doing it this way, y'all, of setting starting your divorce with the end in mind, connected to the future that you want to create. When you do this, it gives you your one question and that it's the the rubric or the standard by which you can make every single decision in your divorce.

Your one question would be, Will this action text message, email pop off? Comment? You know what? Court case, trial, whatever will this thing get me closer to or farther away from where I'm trying to get to? That's it, that's it. So every single time. Okay. If I send this this, um, our family wizard message, is this going to get me closer to or farther away from that future?

And if the answer is farther away, then you're not going to do it. You're like, literally not going to do it. And I wish I would have known I was just like after the fact thinking about this, I think I intuitively did it. Um, I basically I mean, if I'm really honest, I didn't want to be in trouble. Mhm. Um, and I think a lot of women struggle with this where like, we really don't want to be in trouble.

And it's something I'm trying to shed now. But back then I didn't want to be in trouble with the court. Um, and look, here's I mean, this is just the brass tacks. I had to be perfect as a client because I had to show this course of performance over a long period of time of the I could be trusted. It's a lot easier Um, for them like to explain, you know, deny till you die.

Explain away every single thing. So what I always knew was if I had one mess up or one pop off email or anything, that's all I'd hear about the entire trial would be that one message. Right? And then it kind of calls into question the rest of your behavior. So for me, I truly was striving for perfection in terms of my behavior as a client.

Now, that's a really high bar and standard, and I don't want everybody to think like, oh, I've sent one email, so I'm totally screwed. You're not. It's also true that there are some messages you can send or some things that you can do that truly will become the center of a trial in your future and can sink your ship on one thing, even if they've done all kind of other batshit tons of it.

But they got a good lawyer on the other side who used to be a prosecutor in the Bronx. And they know to point at that one thing, and that's all that trial's going to about. That's all they're going to talk about, is this one time you send this one, you pretend to be this whole really great co-parent or whatever, but you called him a spineless motherfucker.

in this message. So which is it? Right. Um, and I think that that, you know, back to your point about getting to that center. I think it's like what you said with those lifelines.

01:33:11.300 — 01:33:52.620 · Speaker 1

Um, and it's more, you know, divorce is one really hard thing, but life has a lot of hard things. There's lots of things that come up and you can get. This is the this is the silver lining of divorce. And this is the the better instead of bitter. You can gain the power to regulate your own nervous system. You can gain the power through experience to become your own center.

And that way, let the tempest come. Let the wind blow. I see, I as I say it, I get chills because I own it. You ain't going to move me. If I've made up my mind I will not be moved. And I didn't say that before my divorce and my custody drama that's been going on all this time. It is the real.

01:33:55.270 — 01:34:39.549 · Speaker 1

Revenge, right? Not that we should seek revenge, but really, they say the best revenge, right? Is living a happy life. And what I mean is, like the real jewel of the entire process is. It made me really, really get okay with me, get centered on me. And to know that I can own and say, you may not move me if I if I am resolved.

And ladies, as y'all do this in the divorce and you may feel so far away from feeling that way, I understand I was a I was a sheet in the wind when I first started the whole thing, um, blown about by every message and everything he said. And I mean, just all kind of, I mean, I was the same. And then something in me resolved

01:34:40.790 — 01:35:29.650 · Speaker 1

to no longer be that way and to find my center. And I think that the ways to do that, if I'm listening and I'm like, okay, well, how do I do that though? Um, would be to some of the specific ways that you can arm yourself to do this would be don't send any message or say anything. When you're activated in your emotions.

Be it really happy, really sad, really mad. Don't say nothing until you can draft it and then wait. And in the morning, yeah, see if you still want to send it. Right. So it's having letting your cooler head prevail for when you speak. I think it's a time when you have some more time on your hands, when your kids are going every other weekend or whatever to do some things, maybe for self-care, slash, you know, your spirit, um, feeding that in a way that maybe you couldn't inside your marriage or didn't, I guess inside your marriage.

01:35:29.690 — 01:35:31.290 · Speaker 3

I think that's really important.

01:35:31.330 — 01:36:44.700 · Speaker 1

Yeah, for me, it was yoga. I started yoga at the time. It's whatever reason felt like I couldn't. I mean, it's it's on me. I chose not to in my marriage. I know that now. But at the time, you know, going into yoga and I remember, like, for me, in that house, I moved into this cookie cutter little house in San Antonio, and I bought two plants at Walmart.

I'm sure it was at Walmart. Um, hanging plants. And there was this little house, and I had my own little front porch, and there were two hooks. And I put these, you know, you know, the gray plastic with, like, white plastic things. $10 plants. Yep. And I would go out every morning before I went into law school and watered those plants.

And I kept them alive the whole time. And they grew and they got really pretty. And it was like it was an outer symbol of what I was doing. Absolutely. Bit by bit, watering my plant every single day, going out there. And it was sort of I didn't know I was doing this to myself. A little bit of a test. Can I can I at least do this right?

My kids weren't with me. My whole life had disintegrated. I'm a piece of shit in my own mind. But. But could I keep. It was a it was a, like, purple, that bright purple color. And like that bright pink color. Two of them. Um, I was I should know what they're called is like that basic plain at Walmart.

01:36:44.740 — 01:36:48.020 · Speaker 3

I'm sorry. In my life, there are purple plants and pink plants. That's it. Yeah.

01:36:48.180 — 01:37:10.360 · Speaker 1

Um, and water in it. And if I could keep it alive, then maybe there was hope for me. And so, like for me, that ritual of every morning having my hot tea and it was quiet in the morning because I was in law school, so class instructed ten or so I had some more time. In the morning, the sun would be coming out, and I'd go out there and water those plants.

So there are some things like that I think they can do right.

01:37:10.400 — 01:37:13.640 · Speaker 3

I like that you're talking about that because, like, I was a little concerned.

01:37:14.760 — 01:37:53.730 · Speaker 3

You talked about being an immovable being, that rock. Um, I don't think I don't like I don't think I have the power to help someone become that like that. Yeah. You can't. Right. It's. I love that you're talking about, like, one thing, right? You're plant one thing, two plants. Um, and just fine doing yoga, finding a couple of things in your life that you can own and that are for you and that you can build around.

Because everything the. You know, while that storm's blowing, you're not the rock yet. So you find some.

01:37:53.770 — 01:39:45.450 · Speaker 1

Yeah, well, it's like church. A lot of people go to church. Church? I definitely was doing church at the time. Maybe it could be joining a running club, getting super involved at a gym like you need because your identity. And we've talked about this on another episode about, like, your identity. A lot of us create identities that are houses of cards because they're all derivative, right?

How we we only define ourselves, how we relate to others. So when you pull the card of wife, the whole thing comes down. And so it will help you practice. And that's the thing. So people give me all this advice, I'm like, no, but literally how do I do it? So that's what I'm trying to do is say like, okay, how did I do it?

I didn't know at the time because everybody just said, take time to heal. And I'd be like, what the fuck? Like how though? Now we talk about healing a lot more on the internet than back then. And this was, you know, ten however much years ago, ten, 11 years ago. Um, but for me, I needed, I'm thinking, on this big rock.

Like in my mind. Like I needed something to tie a rope on to. To hang on. You know, like, while the the storm came. And for me, that was church. It was water and implants. For somebody out there listening, it may be just like, I think if you can get it to be something that gives you pleasure, and even better, if it was something that's for some reason you've been putting off.

You've been saving it for later while you're married and you'd been waiting for that someday. Could you claim something like that and just tie you a rope? And until you can create your own independent identity, get some from that. Like a, I think a running club that met several times a week or whatever, it would be amazing.

That would be a great place because you're getting exercise so you'll feel better. You're being disciplined enough to get up in the morning. You'll meet people and all of that. So like finding something that you can attach to because you're not attaching to your spouse anymore. And for most of us who've been married longer than five minutes, like that is such a huge part of how we defined who.

01:39:45.450 — 01:40:46.860 · Speaker 3

We are and probably something positive, right? Because you've talked. You talked about a lot of positive things, but I think there's the danger of attaching to alcohol, attaching to going out clubbing, attaching to, um, connecting with people who might not have your best interest in mind but will, um, yeah, help to further undermine your life.

Um, is really dangerous. It's very it's like it's it's sugar. It's it's very easy. It's it's very powerfully attractive. Um, but, uh, but to find these things that that I like a lot of the things you mentioned, like served dual purposes. Right. Connection and healthy. Yeah. Twofold. Yeah. Um, and that that can be that can be really, really useful.

Um, and I think the other thing kind of along the same lines that I want to kind of caution folks about is because this to me, like I, I think of this as inoculation. If you know about it, you can see it, right? If you don't know about it, you can't. When you start doing these things,

01:40:48.140 — 01:40:48.780 · Speaker 3

um,

01:40:50.340 — 01:41:00.860 · Speaker 3

your x. Your X factor, your x factor will criticize them, right? Be like doing yoga.

01:41:00.900 — 01:41:01.900 · Speaker 1

Who do you think you are?

01:41:02.100 — 01:41:09.260 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Either. Either. Do you know that's all bullshit, right? Or. Yeah. You know, who do you think you are doing? Yoga?

01:41:09.300 — 01:41:10.380 · Speaker 1

I gotta go, yeah.

01:41:10.420 — 01:41:15.620 · Speaker 3

Still fat. One of those? Yeah. Oh, yeah, something like that. Um.

01:41:16.900 — 01:41:19.620 · Speaker 3

And when they see.

01:41:19.700 — 01:41:22.500 · Speaker 1

They'll see you out at a running club with a bunch of guys I always knew. You're a whore.

01:41:22.580 — 01:41:24.020 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep.

01:41:24.060 — 01:41:32.940 · Speaker 1

Which one of them is your new boyfriend? Oh, I guess he didn't pay your bills now. That's what they do. They go for or you have some new friend. Oh. Telling your kids, oh, mommy has a boyfriend.

01:41:32.980 — 01:42:17.720 · Speaker 3

And that's the other one I was going to go for. Right. It's because they'll they'll attack the things that you're trying to associate yourself to, And then they'll attack the things you love, right? And they will hurt the children. And I'm not talking right now about abuse or, you know, hitting them or whatever, but I'm said something like that.

That's your mom's new boyfriend, right? Driving, knowing, speaking to them in a way that they know is hurtful, but not really caring about the effect on the children because they're not a right now being about that, their being about you. Does that hurt me? Hurting them hurt you and does me hurting them split you off of this new life, this new lifeline that you're trying to grab on to?

Um, and

01:42:19.720 — 01:42:31.280 · Speaker 3

I want to be clear. It's not. I wish, like, maybe I don't wish it, but, like, it's not conscious. It's not intentional. This is the way people are for some.

01:42:31.320 — 01:42:32.200 · Speaker 1

For some people, yeah.

01:42:32.240 — 01:42:44.210 · Speaker 3

Some people. It's very calculating. But I think some people, it's just instinctual. They know. They know how to hurt people without even thinking about it. And it's usually because that's how they've been hurt, right? But that's not your job now. Your job is you.

01:42:44.290 — 01:44:19.790 · Speaker 1

And when they don't I think a lot of them, a lot of these guys literally think that if they somehow sabotage you having a good new future, whatever's happening that you're enjoying, you'll come back to them and you'll undo this divorce anyway. He has convinced himself that even though you told him for years, and even though you said, if these things don't change, I'm going to leave you.

And even though he ignored you for years and years, now that you're actually doing it, he is going to be. Oh, he's going to tell his lawyer. Oh, I just came from nowhere. Yeah. Divorce is with women in case any men are listening. Do not come from nowhere. No, they do not. Women with children. At least they have thought through every other potential avenue and tried with you.

I mean, I'm saying 99.9 times out of 100. I mean, I'm sure there's some situation where this isn't true, but I don't know of it. They got to you at the end of a rope, and they're saying, I'm leaving, and I'm willing to put my kids through. Who knows what to get away from you for some new future for myself. Um, but these guys in their mind.

What my experience is, both personally and as a lawyer doing this is they think, um, well, if I do these things and she like, or she or I trap her with the money, like I cut off all the money, whatever, she'll have no choice but to come back to me. Yeah. And they will. I mean, I think a lot of them is part of this strategy to undermine any new success.

And I mean, honestly, like, hurt people. Hurt people, right? So they're hurting this idea that you could move on and be happy and stuff without them when they're in the middle of the hurt and the misery of it is intolerable to their self-concept. Right. Um, and they

01:44:20.990 — 01:44:22.710 · Speaker 1

would basically do anything to stop it.

01:44:22.710 — 01:44:32.110 · Speaker 3

Yeah. And I don't want to I want to make sure we don't limit this to because you kind of said when women leave, it's after a long period of time after trying everything else, whatever.

01:44:33.150 — 01:44:44.439 · Speaker 3

This same behavior happens when it's the dude who left, and it's the dude who found the new young girlfriend. When it's the dude who decided whatever was going to be better. He still

01:44:45.480 — 01:44:50.400 · Speaker 3

wants you to be miserable because he wants you. In case this doesn't work out,

01:44:51.640 — 01:45:03.760 · Speaker 3

you'll still want him back, right? He can't. A lot of times this isn't everybody, but a lot of times it's like, I can't, you know, I'm moving on, but I don't want you to.

01:45:04.000 — 01:45:13.840 · Speaker 1

Well, it's like this lawyer diamond say something pretty crass, so warning. Mute me for a second. Um, this one lawyer down in San Antonio said, well, Hannah, you were his piece of ass.

01:45:15.640 — 01:48:03.490 · Speaker 1

Is it like this whole. It goes back to forever, uh, of men owning women? You know, it's only recently that we could get our own bank accounts, for God's sake. And this idea of, like. Well, that was his. And so, like, that's he's going to he may do something else, but nobody else is going to have you. Right. That's not going to happen.

Um, And look. And I'm not. I'm not trashing men. I think there are so many great men in the world. And I think what the world really needs is more men who step up like you, who are the sort of good men out there. Okay, so I'm not this is not about that. Just in the divorce context and in our offices, we see a lot of the really bad situations because it's those fellows who are rustling up a bunch of trouble that turn into these big cases often.

But I think at least if she's prepared for this, and I think there's no amount of anything that can prepare you because you can't fathom it in the moment, probably that it could be possible that this person you're married to, who's been the daddy to these kids, who threw him up in the air, on the beach, and then it helped you change diapers, whatever would do something to hurt them, to get to you.

But I remember when I was in the middle of the divorce. Yeah. My friend, this young lawyer guy, younger than me by a few years, single, not married, nothing. He said, oh, he's not getting used. So he's going to turn on the kids next. And I was like, what? Like no way. Huh? Yeah. Yeah. Way, yeah way. Um, when it when you are successful in what we're telling you, I guess that's step one.

Get successful in creating your own senator. Finding a way to make yourself, you know, start on a happy start towards your future. Right. Doing those positive things, creating this new identity, rebuilding. If as and when you're good at that and you're able to be a bit of a gray rock towards him, this idea of like not feeding into the narrative, not getting down in the mud, whatever, then you might want to be prepared that, uh, what's coming next is a next level of the warfare in his mind.

And that's saying stuff to the kids. Well, mommy, um, mommy and are not married because she was kissing another man's. Um, mommy and I are not married because she drinks too much wines, right that whatever they'll say whatever to those kids. And that's when if you didn't question your decision before, you're going to question it then.

Right. It's also both the 1,000,000% confirmation you made the right decision. Yeah. Because if anybody would do that to those kids, you're not going to be married to that mom. You know? And it's also the part where you will question, was this worth it? It's choosing me in a positive life, in building this new life for me and my kids.

Was it worth it for them to have to go through this? That's the point. That's what they want you to do.

01:48:03.530 — 01:48:15.290 · Speaker 3

That's exactly right. Yeah. And that's that's why I said I brought it out a little bit. I said, they'll go after the things you love usually is the children. But it can also be your family, your friends, um,

01:48:16.330 — 01:48:18.690 · Speaker 3

your pets. And it.

01:48:18.690 — 01:48:30.150 · Speaker 1

Did. Or make the whole divorce about getting that, that cabin in the woods that you love so much and is your happy place in this world, and that there is no circumstance where they'll let you have it. Right. I've seen that a bunch of times, but yeah.

01:48:30.190 — 01:48:36.630 · Speaker 3

And it will make you question it. Is it is it worth it? And then, I mean, I guess the alternative is like,

01:48:38.390 — 01:48:50.390 · Speaker 3

is that the person I'm going to spend the rest of my life with? Is that what I'm going to go back to? And then I'll now have that over my head the rest of my life. Because now if I go back now,

01:48:52.110 — 01:49:25.550 · Speaker 3

how will I ever get the strength back together to do this again? Because this the whole power dynamic now will have shifted even worse. I just want to see how you react to this, okay? Because when people are when women. When men too. But when women are in that situation and they think about going back, I would suggest that the thing to do would be to say, listen.

Hold that thought. Put a pin in that you're not done on your journey yet of becoming yourself, about finding your new life and your future.

01:49:27.200 — 01:49:28.800 · Speaker 3

Why don't you get there

01:49:30.040 — 01:49:48.600 · Speaker 3

and then think about it, right? Because if this, you know, if that's the person they want and that's the person that you could be happy with, then that's the time to think about it. Not now. Because now you will. You give up all your power. You give up everything because you'll never be able to.

01:49:50.240 — 01:50:21.640 · Speaker 3

You have proven to yourself, I shouldn't say never be able to, but you'll have proven to yourself that. That that's that was a bridge too far. That was too difficult. And so getting that gumption up the next time was going to take a lot more. Now, you may be able to do it like I've seen people do. I've seen people who've gone back and gotten back out.

Anyway, um, found that strength. Um, usually with some help and, you know. But. So I'm not saying it's impossible, but but once you've made the decision to work on yourself and be and find your future self, you got to go all the way.

01:50:21.920 — 01:51:27.710 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, I think that Absolutely. The best advice would be you're not going to be in the middle of this him pull all this bullshit. You get scared and run, tuck tail and run back to him because you will make a decision based on fear and lack and, um, escaping consequences or whatever. Whatever got you into this marriage in the first place, you're doing that again.

So ideally, like, say, maybe it's part of the way along. Like you started thinking, well, maybe I shouldn't have done it. Maybe he is changing it. All the times I told him while we were married, he should change, he didn't. But now all of a sudden, he's changing. So, like, okay, so say you're convinced by that.

Well, then make him start from ground. This is what I would do. Make him start from ground zero. From now, he can ask you on a date. First date again, and you rebuild. Because I think what people do is jump right back into absolutely home all over again. And that's the old patterns. And you have no time. But like, look, a man who wants a woman is going to do whatever he's got to do to get that woman.

He will. He will. He will show up. He will. He will do. That's just how men are wired to go after.

01:51:27.750 — 01:51:29.270 · Speaker 3

Cue the Joe Cocker music. Yeah.

01:51:29.550 — 01:51:30.470 · Speaker 1

I don't know what that is.

01:51:30.510 — 01:51:31.710 · Speaker 3

Oh, when a man loves a woman.

01:51:31.710 — 01:53:03.370 · Speaker 1

Oh, yeah. It's true. Yeah. Um, he will go after what he wants. So if that's what he really wants, then you have him pursue you from the beginning, the way you wish it would have gone then and only then, once you, with a fresh mind, can decide. Is this a new good decision today? Is this a good decision today? Not.

It's a sunk cost at this point. Everything in the marriage and all that other stuff that's happened. So like okay, sure. And we have these kids and those are all the reasons. But like, would today me be willing to begin again with this person and the way, you know, is like again, again with the person and see, see how it goes.

Eight, nine out of ten times. There's no way he's going to see it through. He ain't going to do that. He wants to just jump right back into bed, back into the house and everything. Go back fine and get this problem off of his back and put his money back in his pocket. That's what he wants. But if it's really about you ladies, he's going to be willing to do the steps that he needs to do to pursue you and show you that he really means what he says.

If he really loves you and is really willing to make the changes, he'll do it. But if he won't do it, then it's not for that reason. It's not for you, it's for him. It's for him to make himself feel better and have a woman in his bed. And you know, when he lost you. That's a that's a good woman. He lost and he fucked it up.

He knows. He knows that all that time he wasn't listening. And maybe he's even played the field a little bit and like, well, maybe, maybe things ain't so good out there. Maybe my the gal, she kind of makes spaghetti the way I like it. You know, that's kind of nice. Um, and I guess it's just that I think that at that juncture,

01:53:04.690 — 01:53:15.689 · Speaker 1

when this, like, get back together in the middle of it thing comes up. Women are so quick to undermine their self-worth and just let them walk back in the door after everything. And

01:53:16.930 — 01:53:27.230 · Speaker 1

if I had any piece of advice, I mean. yeah, I go. I think, sure, go all the way and get divorced and then begin. Sure. I think that maybe that was the most. But I would even take it like, you don't have to go all the way to divorce decree sign.

01:53:27.270 — 01:53:30.630 · Speaker 3

Oh, that's not what I was saying. I was saying go all the way to finish and working on you.

01:53:30.670 — 01:53:31.790 · Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's.

01:53:31.830 — 01:53:44.310 · Speaker 3

Don't give up the yoga. Don't give up the, you know, the the new, the things that you'd been put putting off um, saving for later, um, that you're now doing. Finish that.

01:53:44.350 — 01:53:44.910 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:53:44.990 — 01:53:54.710 · Speaker 3

Make those part of your life or not. Like you may decide. You know what? I really don't like yoga after all. Who knew? Um, but, you know, but I really like Pilates. Um.

01:53:54.710 — 01:53:56.110 · Speaker 1

And I do.

01:53:56.150 — 01:53:57.270 · Speaker 3

Really like parties.

01:53:57.310 — 01:54:06.830 · Speaker 1

I think it's like. I think it's such a good question for women to ask themselves of whether this is right or not is. Would you make would you say yes to a first date again?

01:54:06.870 — 01:54:07.430 · Speaker 3

Mhm.

01:54:08.270 — 01:54:25.160 · Speaker 1

Like my husband drew, would I say yes to a first date again. Sure would. It was still a good decision. When I think about my ex-husband it's wild that that ever happened in the first place. Right. And so like and definitely all along the way. No, I wouldn't have. I remember when we were when I was leaving. I was like, if you asked me again I would say no.

01:54:26.600 — 01:54:49.800 · Speaker 1

And getting to that point and really owning it and then sticking with it now. Because where you brought up, thank you for not saving it for later. And obviously that's the the name of the podcast. Um, and so whenever you think about not saving it for later, like that concept, what comes to mind for you? Is there anything in particular?

It's like, hey, I always say that for later. Here's how I try to think about, like, anything come up for you when you think about not saving it for later.

01:54:49.800 — 01:55:01.960 · Speaker 3

I'm not a real good saving it for later person. Um, but I will say, I mean, like I do remember from my first marriage, like one of the things I realized that towards the end is like, I haven't skied in seven years. Mm.

01:55:03.320 — 01:55:19.780 · Speaker 3

I remember the kiddo was only three, right? So it wasn't like all kids, you know? Um, I didn't skate in seven years, and it wasn't the only thing, right? And that at the time, I think I blamed, um, but that wasn't fair, right?

01:55:20.100 — 01:55:21.100 · Speaker 1

You chose not to ski.

01:55:21.140 — 01:55:21.860 · Speaker 3

That's exactly.

01:55:21.900 — 01:55:36.980 · Speaker 1

I mean, but that's the story. A lot of people are gonna be in that story. He wouldn't let me. It was weird if I. She wouldn't let me ski. He wouldn't let me do yoga. I mean, we I used to talk about it in plain way. Like I chose not to do it. You chose to ski, right? That's right. Saved it for later. You'd do it later?

01:55:37.020 — 01:56:22.070 · Speaker 3

Right. But in some way, that was tied up in the relationship. Right. And in some way, um, that was a, you know, something to be saved for later. But. Yeah, I got to tell you. I mean, it's, uh, um, I come from a long line of people who don't save things for later. It's just, um, the my my my family name is Bossman Cole.

Uh, and, uh, and I just we are we are a line of people who who actually live. Um, and it's, you know, to our detriment sometimes, right? I think, uh, sometimes saving some things for later is okay. It's okay to save for retirement. It's okay to save for your kid's school. Um, and I've learned those things because my my predecessors weren't very good at that.

01:56:22.110 — 01:56:40.350 · Speaker 1

Well, and I think that the concept, right is more a little bit like not saving joy for later later. Like, not. I think about it like, I'm not putting joy on layaway. And I think that in case you don't know what layaway is, layaway. I don't know if they still do this anymore, but I remember that they you could like go to Walmart or Target or whatever.

I don't know if target ever, but I know for sure Walmart did.

01:56:40.390 — 01:56:40.790 · Speaker 3

Walmart.

01:56:40.830 — 01:57:42.250 · Speaker 1

Kmart and Kmart. You could like, buy your kids, you know, bike. And it was $100 and you could put it on layaway and make payments against it and then go get the bike. Right. So I think that in a lot of people's marriages, what they do is they put the joy on layaway, like, okay, I'm going to later, I'm going to do these investments.

And then one day I'll experience joy and then one day. So the idea would be, um, experience in that joy now, I mean, definitely in the, in like what we're talking about. For me, it was yoga. It was just one of those things. I was like, I don't know what is yoga like? It's it's kind of cool and I think I might like it.

but I don't know. Something about me felt like I couldn't do it then. Um, and so I think that was true for me. Okay. Another thing we ask everybody is, you know, my theory is that we kind of have one dominant thought at a time where, you know, you're going about your life, you're going about your business, but there's some thread in your mind that you're chewing on.

And I know this about you, you know, um, two. But one thread you're chewing on, maybe it's for a day. Maybe it's for a week, a few weeks. Is there any any dominant thought in your mind that's you've been chewing on the last bit?

01:57:42.690 — 01:58:22.940 · Speaker 3

Gosh, that's a hard one because I, I mean, I one of the things and this may be helpful, but one of the things I've tried to work on real hard in my life is, is, is, um, dominant thoughts like things, worries, things you can't let go of. Um, I've learned over time that if I do have a dominant thought, like I have to work it, I have to work it all the way through.

And so I'll just take some time, make some time, choose some time to work that thought all the way through and then make a decision. Yes or no? Um. Move forward with this or not? Um, you know, you and I, we talk a lot about business, and so I've got lots of dominant thoughts about.

01:58:23.340 — 01:58:24.540 · Speaker 1

Like, AI and family law.

01:58:24.580 — 01:59:19.640 · Speaker 3

Yeah, right. AI marketing costs. Um, profitability is a big one. Um, ROI on team members. Like, those are things that have big, long three lines for me. It's not very interesting to your listeners, I think. Um, but those those are the kinds of things. Um, I think, you know, as a parent, what's the dominant thought, as always?

Am I doing like, you know, my, my, I just graduated the last two out of high school, but I still you know what? They're not. They're always your kids. Am I doing the right thing by them like I did today? Am I doing the right thing by them? That's a dominant thought. Like, what could I what could I have done better?

But also, what could I be doing better tomorrow? Um, is is a big one. Um, and just, uh, you know, am I leading a life by example? Um, am I providing the resources for them to do anything they want in life, but not enough resources? They can do nothing. Um,

01:59:20.880 — 01:59:23.200 · Speaker 3

that's a that's always a through line for me.

01:59:23.240 — 02:00:36.260 · Speaker 1

Yeah. For me, lately it's been, you know, we were talking about, like, helping people connect with their future. And this manifest idea and manifest is like, I don't know, but I think there might be a little something to it. You know, they've been talking about visualization since ever. And, like, I don't know, Michael Jordan or Kobe or one of them talks about, you know, you envision the ball going to the basket and then you do the thing.

So I've been a little bit lately trying to do more of that on purpose versus like a flash of a vision that feels like it's like dropped in my brain, um, and being a little bit more intentional and purposeful. So like, as I'm going to bed at night trying to picture myself doing some certain thing, like doing a Ted or Ted talk and picture myself on the red dot in just a minute and feeding that into my brain as I'm going to sleep because I want to go to sleep.

I'm like, oh my God, I'm already late. I should already be in bed every night. I should have been in bed at least an hour ago. Um, I'm always thinking I should change that. I'm always making myself wrong about when I go to bed. I really don't want to go to bed till at least 11 and sleep till seven, but that doesn't fit my life.

Um, and so I'm always chasing my tail in that way or anyway. And so normally when I go to bed, it's like we'll sleep immediately. And so trying to take my last consciousness thoughts and I'll give myself that fodder. It's like.

02:00:36.260 — 02:00:37.620 · Speaker 3

Yeah, that's great thought.

02:00:37.860 — 02:00:56.660 · Speaker 1

Trying to think about like that. Okay. Um, now another question for you. Um, what's shaken you? And so this is a question we ask everybody, like if there's a, a book, a quote, a TV show, um, a concept that's really got you kind of thinking things through, interested in.

02:00:57.460 — 02:01:21.670 · Speaker 3

I'm going to give one current, but then I'm going to give one that like there's some books, some things in life that really just crab you. Um, I'm going to go to that one in a second. So, like, right now what's what's shaking me, uh, I think, uh, Ray Kurzweil's, um, most recent book, it was released this past June called, um, The Singularity Is Near.

Um, it's a follow up to a book about a decade ago called The Singularity Is Near.

02:01:21.790 — 02:01:22.830 · Speaker 1

What is that about?

02:01:22.870 — 02:02:04.010 · Speaker 3

Yeah, it's they're both fantastic. Ray Kurzweil is a futurist. Um, uh, very, very scientifically grounded. Um, uh, he doesn't write much fiction, but, like, he reminds me of, like, a more current day Asimov. Like, he's he's so well read and so scientifically grounded, but he uses that to think about where we're headed in, particularly with, um, AI in computing.

And the thing is, the guy's been writing about this for 20. Well, probably for three decades. I knew about his first book in the late 90s. Um, but the Singularity is near ten years ago, and then the singularity is near. This year, um,

02:02:05.450 — 02:02:40.290 · Speaker 3

our books about where we are headed. The singularity that, as he defines it, um, is. And the other thing your listeners probably don't know, it's like I started school as an astrophysics major. And so if anybody's ever heard the word singularity, they think about it with black holes, like black holes at the center of a singularity where space is infinitely bent and where matter is infinitely compressed.

And the thing with the black hole is you can't see beyond it. Um, everything. Things fall into a black hole. Nothing comes out. And actually, Stephen Hawking has not proven that's not true, but.

02:02:40.330 — 02:02:40.570 · Speaker 1

It goes.

02:02:40.570 — 02:02:58.610 · Speaker 3

Somewhere. That's the concept, right? And so for Ray Kurzweil, the the singularity is the point at which, um, the computing power, um, that is available allows us to

02:02:59.620 — 02:04:06.360 · Speaker 3

Have computers that can do all the computations of all the humans at the same, at the same rate, with the same accuracy, with the same power as all humans. And the reason he calls it a singularity that he can't. Even as a futurist, he can't see past that. Once that happens, we don't know what happens. Um, and, uh, but like all the lead up to that is very fascinating, um, about how really, you know, people are worried that AI is going to, you know, computers will take over the world.

AI is going to take over the world. His vision is actually, no, it's not. It is us. It's we are creating the new us. Um, and and how they'll come by little things, then by big things and uh, and so but to understand and the cool thing for me is the book ten years ago really shook me. Um, and then the book that just came out demonstrates that, like 90 some percent of what he predicted in the first book It's all happened.

Oh. Um. And. And then takes it forward from there. Um, in a way that. And I'd say shook me. It's not scary.

02:04:06.400 — 02:04:08.720 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I know, it's like. Is it? It feels a little scary.

02:04:08.760 — 02:04:22.400 · Speaker 3

Yeah, it it does feel a little scary at first. But as you read it, you, you realize that, like, it almost feels like destiny. This is what this is why we exist. And to understand it is to be able to help

02:04:23.920 — 02:05:09.740 · Speaker 3

my own family, my own self, but also to help others to use this technology and make this part of their lives in a way that'll be positive for them. And so it's shaken in the sense that it shakes how I think we're moving forward and what we all need to be doing. Um, so that's the current one. The one I wanted to jump back to actually goes back to saving it for later, because I was a little unsettled by my answer.

Um, for that there is a book. So I, I was once at a coach's office. I went to his office in Charlotte, North Carolina, and on the wall he had a quote that bugged me, and the quote was the only problem with you is that you think you have plenty of time. Oh, Jesus. And that quote just grabbed me, but it said the Buddha.

02:05:10.780 — 02:05:11.620 · Speaker 3

And

02:05:12.660 — 02:05:33.780 · Speaker 3

I'm not a Buddhist. I haven't studied extensively, but like it didn't hit me, right. I was like, that doesn't sound like the Buddha. And so I went and found it. And it actually comes from a book called The Journey to Ixtlan and that's Ixtlan by Carlos Castaneda's. And then I read that book, the whole book, and that book shook me.

02:05:34.340 — 02:05:35.500 · Speaker 1

So my shelf. I haven't read.

02:05:35.500 — 02:06:13.589 · Speaker 3

It. Oh my gosh, you have to read it. It's not a hard read at all. I mean, it's like it might keep you up. So it might be a one nighter, but like, it's it's a good book. But the quote comes out. He's talking to, um, you know, it's a, it's the third in a trilogy of the of Don Juan. Yeah. Um, but the first two are kind of peyote and the alternate realities, and they're cool.

But this last one, Journey to Islam, is really it's a dialog between a reporter and the author, and the reporter is trying to learn how to become a warrior. And

02:06:14.950 — 02:06:58.530 · Speaker 3

the author is just like telling him he's missing the point. Um, because you don't have to become it. You just are it. And the only problem with the the, the, the protagonist in this is that he says that you think you have plenty of time. Because when we think we have plenty of time, we save things for later. Um, when we think we have plenty of time, we don't have urgency.

When we think we have plenty of time. We watch a decade go by before we decide to make a change in our lives. And the truth is that if we live each day like it is our last, We really move ourselves forward. Um. And you don't, you know, don't do stupid things. You know, don't don't.

02:06:58.570 — 02:07:02.730 · Speaker 1

Yeah. It's a balance. I mean, not advocating, like, not having any money in the bank.

02:07:02.770 — 02:07:03.450 · Speaker 3

Right, exactly.

02:07:03.490 — 02:07:06.210 · Speaker 1

Spend it all on, you know, popsicles or whatever.

02:07:06.210 — 02:07:11.889 · Speaker 3

But not saving it for later. And so the it is not like the money, right? It's saving it for later is not

02:07:13.330 — 02:07:37.250 · Speaker 3

having savings accounts. Saving for college, saving for retirement. The it is, as you said it as joy. And I think that's a that's a part of it. Um, but it's a part of it as is fulfillment. It's fulfilling purpose. It's, you know, if you're meant to do something, if you want to do something, don't wait. Um, that one shook me.

And that one. That one's really changed my life in big ways. So break the damn book.

02:07:37.290 — 02:07:41.690 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I know, I've had it on my shelf. You know, I read, um, the Four Agreements guy, right?

02:07:41.730 — 02:07:46.970 · Speaker 3

No, no no, no. Uh, for for four agreements. Uh, Ruiz. Ruiz. Tommy Ruiz.

02:07:47.330 — 02:07:47.530 · Speaker 1

Um.

02:07:47.810 — 02:07:55.140 · Speaker 3

Carlos castaneda's similar. thoughts into some degree, but castaneda's.

02:07:57.100 — 02:08:07.460 · Speaker 3

I don't know, it's Domingo Ruiz is more about how to think about yourself and about life around you. Castaneda's is more about how to act.

02:08:07.500 — 02:08:15.220 · Speaker 1

Okay, I that's I'm gonna start today. I mean, I'm here because the what I was thinking of from that book is like, may death be ever our advisor.

02:08:15.260 — 02:08:15.740 · Speaker 3

Absolutely.

02:08:15.780 — 02:08:27.500 · Speaker 1

And it's another way of saying the same thing. And I, I think that is true. Right. And the same the same quote that always sticks with me on this would be like it got late early.

02:08:27.620 — 02:08:28.060 · Speaker 3

Mhm.

02:08:28.940 — 02:08:37.740 · Speaker 1

Um, how you know, I'm 42 now and all of you know, you only ever feel 25 in your mind or whatever. Absolutely. Um, and.

02:08:37.779 — 02:08:38.819 · Speaker 3

So I was 12.

02:08:38.859 — 02:10:18.850 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Um, and I think that idea and that's for me, I just started saying, you know, it came up for me like I would save the good spoons. It always comes up. And my friend Brooke was on the show and she got me the sweetest spoons. And I have so many spoons. Um, but I would always save the good spoon for my tea for tomorrow.

Even though there's more in the drawer. And I and I own a dishwasher that usually runs at least 2 or 3 times a day. It's so ridiculous. Um, and then it has just sort of permeated out to all the other ways in my life that because I've been such a, you know, plotter a longer, you know, invest now, do the right things.

Now do your custody case right now so that someday in the future, this and that with the kids and if you're not careful, that well-reasoned logic that made you a good student, that made you a good girl, will rob you of a lot of the meat and marrow of life. And it's a it is a everyday, uh, becoming for me all the time, in every situation.

I mean, this podcast obviously is part of that of destiny because I was thinking it's joy, but it's also to me like destiny. Um, and yeah, which is for me involves purpose and all of that together. And the idea that it just gets late, early, and before you know it, you're like both of us. We both sent kids off to college this year.

Yep. Um, and it's over. And the days are the the truer, no truer phrase ever been said about kids then the days are long, but the years are short, right? Okay. Last one. Christopher, if you could only give one piece of advice to the women of divorced land who are thinking about getting divorced in the middle of it or after?

What would you tell them?

02:10:19.970 — 02:10:21.290 · Speaker 3

Know where you're going.

02:10:22.610 — 02:10:24.250 · Speaker 3

And if you don't know?

02:10:26.410 — 02:10:32.090 · Speaker 3

Talk with someone who can help. You know it doesn't have to be a lawyer. Um, it could be a counselor.

02:10:32.330 — 02:10:33.210 · Speaker 1

Coach sort.

02:10:33.250 — 02:10:50.590 · Speaker 3

Yeah, but someone who's not invested in that future, that's the most important part. Someone who's not personally invested in the future, who can help you explore it for you. Because otherwise you'll get infused with whoever it is. If it's your mom, if it's your friend, even if it's your friend, your best friend.

They're too invested in you. And they.

02:10:51.670 — 02:11:00.230 · Speaker 3

This goes back now to Don Miguel Ruiz. But everybody in your life, everybody in your life.

02:11:01.750 — 02:11:09.590 · Speaker 3

For them, you are but a character in their movie, their book, their play,

02:11:10.910 — 02:11:16.150 · Speaker 3

and they've written that character. You haven't.

02:11:17.310 — 02:11:48.609 · Speaker 3

That character might look like you sound like you, act like you, but it's a character they wrote for their book. And so their advice for your future will need to be consistent with that character. And it's, you know, there's nothing nefarious, there's nothing wrong with the way they'll approach it is just they wrote that character and you deserve to write your own.

And so the only really you should talk when you talk. If you need to talk with someone about

02:11:50.130 — 02:11:55.410 · Speaker 3

envisioning your future, um. Talk with someone who's not invested in it.

02:11:55.450 — 02:14:05.360 · Speaker 1

I think that's really sound, counsel, because this is a question and support that I've had difficulty finding over the years. Um, and I asked it a lot of times you can ask a lot of people, well, how do I know what that is? How do I figure that out for me? A lot of really smart people kind of look at me and go, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, are you're supposed to be like a mindset coach. What do you mean you don't know how to tell me how to think about this? Um, and I think what someone who's objective can do is remind you that you are limitless. Remind you that we live in a good universe. Remind you that you're only as stuck as you believe you are.

And encourage you to say, okay, if no one was going to. This is what Casey Shipp, who's been on the show and is, is a a support slash coach slash whatever, um, shaman mentor person for me in this area. She says if nobody was going to get in trouble, if nobody was going to get hurt, if your kids were still going to turn out okay, if nobody would say anything bad about you, what would you do?

What life would you have? How would you feel? Because I'd say, look, kind of like in The Truman Show. I'd be like, I don't know, people ask me that question. I don't know, I'm already I'm already well beyond the white wall like in Truman Show. You know, he comes to the end of the set and it's white. And then he, you know, if you open the door to what's on the other side.

And so for me, I'm like, I'm so far already I've so far surpassed anything I ever envisioned. It's like, well, you need to start dreaming bigger things. That's right. And and I think someone who's objective can do that. But let's say you're listening to this, ladies, and you don't have that person in your life.

Okay. So I'll tell you, just like what Casey told me is to think about this and ask yourself, okay, if I wasn't worried about how I'd have the money, I wasn't worried about, you know, what my mom would say? I wasn't worried about, you know, not being smart enough, pretty enough, fit enough. I wasn't worried about not being able to find the person of my dreams.

All of them probably leave all the house aside and no one's going to get hurt. Nobody is going to be ugly about you. Whatever. What would that life look like? And just. I think you got to do it outside. Go outside and do it.

02:14:05.960 — 02:14:06.600 · Speaker 3

Yeah.

02:14:06.640 — 02:15:02.130 · Speaker 1

Put your feet in the dirt, in the water or something. Connect to nature and just breathe them in it. I mean, to me, I'm envisioning this one time I did this, like, laid on a, like, an outside lawn chair kind of thing with my back up in a pretty day in, in Austin, looking up at the sky and the clouds just going. Something about that got me in the right space of like, what would you like?

Whisper? It's almost like even when I think about saying, I'm like, well, I guess I'd have a podcast, you know, like that would have been so like, and you'd kind of have to. So if you're not kind of almost like if you're anything like me, it doesn't feel a little bit like a secret. Then you probably haven't dug deep enough like that part that you've.

Or maybe you're just a lot more healed than me and a lot more put together. And congratulations. Like some people just know. But for me, it's like, no, I never, like, let myself have permission. Because then, then if I admitted I had a desire and I didn't have it, I'd set myself up for disappointment.

02:15:02.170 — 02:15:02.610 · Speaker 3

Hmm.

02:15:02.650 — 02:15:12.930 · Speaker 1

And I think us, a lot of us super achievers, we don't like disappointment and we'll do basically anything to not get disappointed. So if you never want anything, then.

02:15:12.930 — 02:15:13.490 · Speaker 3

You can't wait.

02:15:13.530 — 02:17:03.280 · Speaker 1

Yeah, you can't get disappointed. And I think we learned that tool when early on in life, we had a lot of expectations of people and others and things marriages. It didn't work out. And that disappointment, I think a fear of disappointment can ruin your life because then you're never out there on the edge.

You're never out there trying. Because if you don't, if you if you might, if it was a sure thing. There's no failure inherent, right? Then there's no risk. You're not out there on the edge. Um, and I think that for me, that part of getting clear about that future involves somehow stripping off those limits.

If someone will listen to you, even if, like, you know what, actually, we live in the greatest period in the history of the world. You have the AI computer, you know, who will listen to you objectively ish, the AI computer. And you tell it and you ask it to ask you these questions. Get a transcript of this podcast, this very last bit, feed it to it and tell it to help you think in this mindset and in this energy about how the you need to create and you want to create this future for yourself, but you feel limited and you feel stuck, directed to ask you questions.

Tell it. Don't just tell you what you want to hear. Be thoughtful. Take on the role of like a life coach, a spiritual advisor, whatever you do, and then get it to help you. You have an objective advisor at your fingertips on your phone or however you listen to this podcast. Like basically right now, that wasn't true five years ago.

I know for me, I do this kind of stuff now with AI. Every day, every day I talk to it about something that's going on and it helps me to see. So I was thinking about like, how would these women do it? What if they can't hire a coach or a therapist? They don't have any money or something, but actually you don't have to.

It's free on the internet. So okay, well, there that problem is solved. Well, okay.

02:17:03.640 — 02:17:04.200 · Speaker 3

I just started.

02:17:04.360 — 02:17:20.560 · Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a place to start. That's right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you, and I think your insight on people getting divorced, connecting with that future as sort of the North Star throughout their divorce is such good advice. I wish I would have known that at the time.

02:17:20.600 — 02:17:21.840 · Speaker 3

I know, I know, me too.

02:17:21.880 — 02:17:24.640 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I guess we we know how to tell him because we did it a different way.

02:17:24.680 — 02:17:27.240 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But thanks for having me on.

02:17:27.280 — 02:17:28.360 · Speaker 5

Thanks, Christopher. Cheers.