Transcript: Abby

Not Saving It For Later — Hannah Hembree Bell with Abby

Source file: ABBY_REV.mp4 · Duration: 01:01:57

Transcript

I think once women realize they deserve more than what they've gotten than what they've been told to ask for. When I think things really start to click into place, most of the women I talk to you and have worked with see it. They've seen it for a long time. They know the invisible prison. They just don't think that they deserve more than that. That they're worth more than that. That they don't even believe that they could possibly ask for more than that. No that it's not going to get them anywhere so the grass couldn't possibly be greener. And I think part of that problem is that women always think about the green or grass being another man. Let's be honest, most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later when the kids are grown later, when the timing's right, later when you finally stop caring what they think. Well, I'm done waiting.

I'm Hannah himbrie Bell, Texas Divorce Lawyer, mom, and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage. This is not saving it for later. The podcast, guiding women through divorce and beyond. Alright, everybody, welcome to Not Saving It For Later with your host, Hannah himbrie Bell. I am here today with someone I am so excited for you all to meet and like personally fan-girling myself to meet. We have a guest Abby Ekel. I have been following her for a while now online. And I was like, she's gonna be like, who is this girl liking every literal single one

of my posts is she a bot or what? But not really. She just so resonated with me in this fresh, authentic sort of contra perspective from a lot of the like toxic positivity divorce talk that's kind of out there. So that's how I get to her. So we're gonna go on this journey together. I know all of y'all are gonna follow her if you don't already after this, but Abby, you wanna tell us a little bit more about you, like what got you into this universe

kind of given men the business? Oh, gosh. Let's see, I've been creating this type of content for maybe about six years now. And I really, and honestly, when we moved into our neighborhood now, I was talking to some of our neighbors And they were like, where's Mike? Where's your husband? And I was like, oh, it's his week to cook. So he's inside making dinner. And they were like, he's cooking.

And I was like, yeah, well, it's his week to cook. And I put the kids to bed. And then next week, it'll be my week to cook. And he'll put the kids to bed. And they were dumbfounded, confused. Does it put it differently? They were like, I don't understand your husband, and does bedtime routine. And I was like, yeah, okay, yours doesn't. And it really opened this strange, like Pandora's box for me that I started talking about it on TikTok.

And I started talking about domestic labor and how my husband and I split chores and how my husband and I participate in, you know, raising our kids and the mental labor and the invisible labor. And people were just like, all struck and dumbfounded and so confused. And I got my first role taste of the true inequities of cishet marriages. And then somebody gave me, or no, my therapist at the time was like, hey, you should read fair play by Yiv Rotsky.

And I was like, oh, great, yeah, so I did, and I loved it. And at the time, it really felt like something that I could give women that felt tangible of a way to actually more fairly distribute the labor because everybody kept asking me, like, well, what did you do? How did you train your husband? Those types of questions, and I was like, I didn't. We didn't sit down and have this conversation of, you do this, and I do this, and we split it this way,

and then we reconvene, and we shake things up again. We just did. There wasn't really a time where it was like, Hey, I'm tired of doing everything all of my own. We have to figure something out. This isn't fair. We never had that. And so I didn't know what to tell those people. I wanted something concrete to help women in these situations. And then I ultimately got to a point where I was actually fair play still is not the answer. It's a band-aid.

And the root problem is that nobody thinks what women do is valuable. And nobody thinks the work that women do is valuable and our labor and all the things I mean. Yeah, until it's fucking gone, I guess. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, so yeah, I just kind of, once I started reading about it, I never really stopped and I never shut up about it. So what do you think the root cause of that happening is? So like in your situation, I appreciate that.

Like I learned this lesson and getting into a more fair play marriage, the hard way by being in a completely not supportive marriage. The first time around got divorced and am now in a situation much more like that. But like, what do you think is the underlying cause of so many women being in these marriages? Or like, or the men acting like that? Like, what do you think causes this? Personally, in my humble opinion, I think it's societal conditioning for women, we saw it.

I saw it. I don't know other than like, I don't know how I got to where I am other than like, I saw the blueprint myself and was like, I don't want that. So I like went rogue in the exact opposite way. But I think for so many women, it is this conditioning. It's this invisible timeline that we've been told since, you know, birth that like, your highest calling is to be a mother and to get married and have babies and nothing else in this world could ever be more fulfilling. But hurry, because you're running out of time, because you don't have that much time to find a man, because your looks are going to fade. And then after 30 year worthless, and nobody wants you and you're not pretty. And like all of these, anyway, believe me anyway, are like drilled into our heads as young

girls. And so, and not only that, then on top of that, we see that like, well men are just stupid and men are just dumb. And you can't really expect too much from men. You can't expect them to be emotionally intelligent and go to work. like, you can't expect them to chew gum and walk at the same time. So we're like, well, shit, I better hurry up and just take the first thing that comes across my plate because somebody actually wants me. And I don't think we ever give women the permission to like think for themselves. Like is this what I want or has this been conditioned

into me to be what I want? And we're like, we don't like reach that until we're older until our 30s and our 40s and we've been through the shit. We've had that world lived experience were like. But then it's sometimes too late. Yeah, for I'm like your literal avatar. So that's exactly what happened to me. I met my ex husband. So I have three big kids with my ex husband. And I met him when I was 20. I got married at 21. And I kind of thought I was a little late at the time. I went off to a small Christian college. And at that point, and I grew up going on a church and stuff. And spent my entire life feeling like I was all wrong. Because I was bold and all these other things, but then at church they'd be quoting the Bible at me

and how women are supposed to be submissive to men. And these little church boy, now I'd say, pussy ass bitches would say to me all the time, how, oh, you're too much, you're not being submissive. Like I was all wrong. So then I go to the small Christian school, net net because I was just afraid to do anything else. And I went off and did that and then met a bunch more of them who were just a few years older. And then that's how they all treated me. So here I am, being my own,

this little, little bitty or version of my own self, and thought I was all wrong. And so I went and started serving tables and met a guy who wasn't a part of the whole church circle. And it was the first one who wasn't like, hey, would you submit, like, we went men or the leaders of the household, that holds kind of church language. And so, and it was the first person at the time, how it seemed, which is funny how it all turned out, that who would let me be the bigger more bold version of me? That's not how it played out in the end, but that's how it was then. And so immediately, and he wanted me done, like that's, we're done. And I was married

and wasn't until I was turning 30. I think it happens to a lot of us. She started to kind of wake up of like, healthy hell. Did I get myself into this situation? And he'd go later, God, I wish there wasn't really even Facebook or anything back then when I was getting I'm 42 so that wasn't really a thing. And I didn't have people like you explaining how it could be. I just thought, you know, you go up to college and you get married and then kids. But then I did exactly that and looked around in my life and was like, after I had my second one, I had kids like, real close together. After my second one, I remember just like, ball in my eyes out and like, yeah, I've had two now.

So if I already knew in my heart, like this was not the right marriage. But now no man's ever gonna want me because I've got two kids, that's different. That's just the one. And it kept me there for long, I even had another baby, whatever. So I received sort of what you're talking about with the church layer to the whole thing, in Texas, that whole piece. And really my life has been about unlearning. And similar to you trying to help other women unlearn

that conditioning, like I really appreciate you said about moms. And it was hard for me in the beginning being a mom. And even when my now has a so plot winner got forced remarried to drew awesome guy when he praised me as a mom. And I'm like, I'm so much more than just a mom. Like stop listing one of the top three things you love about me is I'm this great mom. Yeah, okay, but what about me as the person like that? That's about them and I tell people all the time you don't have to go any further than the The greeting card aisle at Walgreens on Mother's Day to see what a bunch of hook line and sink are we've all bought it All of them will say like you gave up everything for me you sacrifice everything You know, there's that quote about mothers and how it's like oh, what's a mother the one who sees there's the last piece of pie and then suddenly she doesn't want any pie. And that's how we're praised and how we're valued

and to wrestle with that inside the marriage. And then that inside yourself, when your identity has been sucked by these little children who want you non-stop all the time. So you've got them in reinforcing what they've learned and what they've seen and what they want out of you, right? And so that build, I think, don't you, that it creates this, I'm almost seeing like an invisible prison around people. Now they've got the key in their own pocket and the key is awareness and the key is making a different decision.

But do you find in the work that you do that it's difficult for women to see that sort of invisible prison and then have the courage to do something about it in the face of all that societal pressure? I think more than anything that key is women believing that they deserve more. Um, once I think once women realize that they deserve more than what they've gotten, than what they've been told to ask for, that is when I think things really start to click into place. Um, because it is this like, they see it. I think, I think all the women for the most part, I would say most of the women I talk to and have worked with see it. They've seen it for a long time. They know the invisible prison that they're in.

They just don't think that they deserve more than that. They don't think that they're worth more than that. Or that they don't even believe that they could possibly ask for more than that. Or they've asked previously and they know that it's not going to get them anywhere. So, you know, what's the point? The grass couldn't possibly be greener. And I think part of that problem is that women always think about the greener grass being another man. I think a lot of older women and divorce women or single older women will tell you it's you. You're the green or grass girl. It's just you. We kind of get this ability to be like, oh, we don't actually have to have another person

to feel worthy and valuable. I can fill those things myself or I can. If I want to, I can, but I know that I don't have to lower my standards for anything, but I think so many women don't believe that these are more because I think you said and what was told to me, was it like nobody else will want you? Right. That's certainly how I felt after two kids. I was dating this guy one time and he was telling something his dad had told him, like, okay, if a woman cheats on a man, he'll leave her. But the man, she's on the woman a lot of them will stay because she doesn't understand her worth. I don't know if this one-off comment that he told his son.

And to me, my takeaway was just like the worth component. And I do a lot of work with women, you know, consider it before during an after divorce. And I did this webinar one time. And I wasn't even mean in to talk about this, but we were talking about how to get prepared for divorce. And in that, the comments on this, it was a live webinar. So it's like in the Zoom comments, somebody was saying, well, I don't know if I deserve better. And I was like, hold the phone, the whole webinar just whatever my slides didn't care. And we just went into like preach mode and spent the next 20 minutes. And this phrase that I now say all the time just came through, through me of really speaking

into these women's hearts to say, you are worthy because you exist. You don't have to earn it. don't have to repent for it. You don't have to beg for it. There's that Mary all over poem, I think is called Wild Geese, where she talks about like you don't have to, you know, crawl across the desert with in just our job is just to allow our soft body to love what it loves. And I think so much of our lives are spent earning it. And whether it's a parent, society like all of it. And so for these women to understand worth and that your worth isn't tied to whether or not you're chosen by man. And I think that's what it comes down to, right? And we even watch that in proud and prejudiced. It's just all of history, the way it's been. And now for the first generation, right, we can all get credit cards, bank accounts, own properties, own businesses, vote, all of these things that we can do as women now. And it's this unlearning, I think, collectively, I just like keep going forever. Unlearning collectively that we have to shake off

this ancestral learning and this ancestral trauma of like, we had to have a man so that we could exist. And we're not that far from when that was the reality. It wasn't that long ago. It's definitely. And you know, I think accessing that enables me and probably you do too, Abby, like to access compassion for these women that their mothers likely did not grow up in the same freedom that we have. And so we're the first, you know, this kind of 30s, 40s, you're a woman, the first kind of generation where fully able to do all the things. And so with that power comes great responsibility to make a different choice to choose a different outcome for yourself. But I find that in my divorce of all time. These women think they're not going to jump out of this situation until they're into another situation. And we talk about that on the show and talk about it all the time. What you're going to do is get yourself out of the the frying pan and into the fire. You're going to be right back in the same shit sandwich that you got yourself in because you didn't heal yourself. And

I admit that like even when I first got remarried, I was in pick me energy. Right. I needed to be chosen. I wanted to be wanted and wasn't fully awake enough and owning my worth enough and making the decision from choice, not from compulsion. And I think that that work, calling people to that work is, it's nuanced and trying to get them to understand it when they're in the thick of it is hard. But I think you do a really good job at this. And what I'm kind of wondering if this piece is together, Abby, you're called to women to center themselves in their own life. like we can talk about the like just leave thing in a minute. But when if you're willing to center yourself, make yourself the main character in your own life, if you're willing to do that, then it indirectly tells me,

I mean, don't you, is this what you think? Like indirectly that woman has said, I'm something in here has said, the way this is going is not okay with me anymore. And I deserve something better. Do you think that's inherent in what they're doing? If they're willing to do the work with you or follow your lead and putting themselves at the center? Yeah, it's really difficult because I think when I tell women like center yourself, they think, they tend to think of automatically like, okay, well that means I have to find a hobby,

I have to get out of the house for this hobby. I have to like take time for myself away from my kids and my family and... And it's not much money. Yeah, spend it on too money or find a babysitter And then I'm like, then I feel guilty because I left the kids and I know that my husband's not great with the kids and I, and then it ruins the entire point of you centering yourself. And so much of centering yourself is in such small ways that until somebody tells it to you, you don't even realize that you're doing it.

And so when I made a video where I said, you know, sometimes choosing yourself isn't getting divorced, it's making a dinner that you like, even if everybody else hates it. Oh my God, that's my favorite video. Yes. And they were that common for you, The brads and chads, we're gonna murder you over that. You would have thought, yeah, I don't know, but I was like, wow, okay, we'll got lots of feelings here. But it is those things.

And it's one of those really small things where we stop making the foods that we like because majority of our family will need it. Or our husband doesn't like it. Like when I grew up, my mom loved fried chicken. She loved it and she would make homemade fried chicken or on a very rare special occasion she would go and get fried chicken. But my dad had to be sick or not in the mood or out of town because he hated it. And it was, it's like those tiny little things. Like if we think about like, set the thermama set at your preferred setting, all thermostat recommendations are based off of men's bodies,

which is why most of us are cold as fuck when we're in offices or when we're in hotel rooms or conferences or even in our own homes. Because men are always like, you see the videos where kids are messing with the thermostat and dads are there to always you know, get on their ass about it. It's dads and men center themselves naturally by default. And women's default setting is to center everybody else. It feels foreign. It feels uncomfortable. We feel bad. We feel guilty. But when we take those like really tiny steps, like I told women like, hey, schedule something in the middle of a time,

everybody else has shit to do too. Oh my God. My kids have soccer at six. You know what, I wanna take a hot yoga class at 6.30. I'm gonna go and do that. And you know what, everybody will live. Like you have the choice. Everybody has a choice. A lot of women, we do a choice. So sometimes we're like, I can't do that. I can't, no, you can do that. You can.

You have the choice to do it. Will it cause you some discomfort? Will it cause other people some discomfort? It's whether or not you're willing to, you know, to forego that or not. That's not. The consequences. Feel the discomfort. Feel the, you know, the heat from other people and your household. And sometimes for some women and their situations, that's not worth it.

And I get that too. But sometimes it's those really small things. Like once I sit down for dinner, I'm not getting the fuck out of my seat until I finish. I'm not getting anything from my children. I'm not getting anything for anybody else. You will wait until I'm done. I like to eat my food when it's hot and ready. Then once I'm finished, sure. I will help you. I'll get you something else. And sometimes that means I eat

before everybody in my family. I'm not like sit down. Everybody's got to sit down right now and have this meal together. Because sometimes that's actually not relaxing to me. For a lot of moms, meal time is not a relaxing time them because everybody needs something or the kids are spilling stuff or the dogs are there. So with these really small ways and when you take those like really tiny little baby steps into centering yourself, you start getting to like stepping stones and then you start getting to bigger islands and then eventually maybe get to the point where you get your own island and you leave. Well and for me it's funny I've done this journey what you're talking about out in my own way with sort of different ways of saying it.

So how I did it Abby and this is just like something perhaps your audience might find valuable. So the very first thing I started to do, not necessarily to center myself, but just to bring myself back into my own life, was to use the phrase, that is not my preference. And that is not my preference. Well, look. And it was this notion of my preference, fucking matters. This is my life, what I prefer matters. And when I said it, it was like, had the power of a mantra. And something about that sentence, that is not my preference. We'll make the world around you shift. People respond to it because within it is a claim.

And my preference matters. It matters. And so the world should adjust. So for me, the way I started putting myself back in was that is not my preference. And like one thing I love what you brought up is the conditioning of like men and women. And my husband Drew is very thoughtful about these kind of things. And I was talking about women, you know, always spend themselves lapsed. They don't take their time to work out. They're blah, blah, blah, blah.

And law moms are like, we are the queens of this. Well, your moms, they love the mom. Well, your mom, martyr card. And how they don't have any time, they're so stressed out. Like they love to wave that card around.

And I was explaining this to Drew. Like how did guys do with that? you know, feeling. He's like, they don't feel that way. Like they don't feel that way. Get his like Michelle Obama talks about, you know, looking at Barack and how well he got his workout in, right? And that's Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. Come on. So that piece of the guy is going to get his and I'm not saying we necessarily have to go all the way over there. But what if we even began with borrowing 10% of I'm going to get mine because it's like I think also inherent in this whole thing is our collective allergy to a woman's desire and longing and wanting. Like, you hear, I mean, if you ever hear a woman talking about what she wants, what she desires, what she's going to get, something in society responds to that. Like, who the fuck does she think she is? Well, where are your kids going to be?

you are slash, you're a slutty whore, or you know, on the other, like all of those things because being a woman fully in touch with what she wants and what she's gonna get the way that men are, I think largely in just our collective experience is alarming, like a woman's desire and claim for herself is an alarm bill to the powers that be, I think. Yes. And allowing, and so I think we developed this perverse fucked up relationship with the longing and the want. So like, if I'm not worthy and I'm not supposed to want anything, if I'm not an ungrateful bitch,

then what I should do is just be happy my kids are healthy, be happy. And I've got a husband who's got a good job and doesn't hit me or nothing. And settle into the way life is supposed to go. And I think it's a lie that a lot of us eat up, hook line and sinker. And also, I'm not willing to let us all off the hook because there's people like Abby on the internet in the world now. We've got, we live at the same time as Oprah and chat, GPT, like all of that also to us women is like,

look, it's at this point. If you don't know it's one thing, but once you know, then it's kind of on you, Sis, if you continue to perpetuate the stereotype and like that existence for you and for your kids. Because people will be like, you say stuff like this, and I've even, Abby, like I did a talk recently to some lawyer moms, and I was saying about this gal, Abby online, and she talks about centering yourself and putting yourself at the center of your life, because have you heard you are your own main character? And you can feel the honey clench in everybody,

as even I'm saying it, and he's like educated and lightened, smart, capable women. And it's like, y'all, if we continue not to put, and we put everybody else first, and then our kids see that model, And then they grow up and learn to put everybody else first. And so on. So forever, when does anybody ever get to enjoy their own right now life? When does the cycle in? And like, would you want to raise your kids in such a way that they only live their life so that everyone else is happy?

Is that what you're trying to model? Because I think that's what a lot of us do. Yeah, it is. And what does it say that like at the mere mention of women centering themselves, does that cause such discomfort in women themselves and in other people? When I talk about centering yourself, choosing yourself, doing stuff for yourself, or acting like your husband, the way that men come to try to eat me alive because I'm simply holding up a mirror. Like I realized there was a time and I all admit it, I do it to myself sometimes too. I play the card of like, oh, I can't do that. I don't have time.

What about the kids? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was one day like my husband likes to watch Sunday football, like the Chiefs, he religiously watches the game. And it's not like he won't do anything else. Like he's not completely ignoring the kids by any mean, but he's gonna sit his ass down in that couch. And he's gonna watch that game and it's fucking entirety. And it's so long it would bother me. And I couldn't really figure out why. And I was like, oh, it's because I feel like I can't do that.

I feel like I can't take four hours to just myself to enjoy something for me and see your own house, even my kids or house. And it's not that he's ever made me feel that way, but, societally, that's how women are made to feel. And so I was like, you know what, fuck this. I'm gonna go and I took a hot bath, during that football game, I was like, I don't care. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna take a hot bath and I kept telling my kids like, leave me alone, leave me alone, go ask your dad, go ask your dad, go ask your dad, go ask your dad,

and that was fine. I didn't have to leave the house at that point in time. But I was like, I can act like my husband and shit will be okay. And when I said this, when I said that I went and I took a bath and then I watched the documentary, they were like, the women were like, you did this at the same time that your husband watched the game. And I was like, yes, and they were like, well, what about the kids? And I was like, what about them?

Like, they're fine. They're okay. They do not need my constant 100% undivided attention. I am not a fucking cruise ship director. I'm not the fun director. They can figure it out. I don't have babies. I have an eight and a 10 year old, but like Bill managed, they'll be okay. But like we have to get out of our own way sometimes and be uncomfortable and feel like, and question like your feelings.

Like why do I feel guilty? Like does my husband feel guilty? If he goes and does these things? If he goes hunting, if he goes golfing, if he goes marathon training, whatever the fuck it is, no, he doesn't. He's gonna do it and just like with the workout. I do that too. I'm like, oh, well, if I can't work out in the morning, then I can't work out that day because and I gotta get home and the kids, and I was like, no, if I wanna work out,

I'm gonna go and I'm gonna work out and everybody else will fucking deal with it. For me, it was about sleep. I started saying when my kids were smaller, probably about your kids age, my big ones. And I would just say, mom sleep matters too. Like when everybody who want me and a million things later not in this school project, now I was like, look, mom sleep matters too. And I'm just sort of claiming that and saying that. And I don't know for me, yes, it's the husband component. And this one's a little bit more subtle.

And I don't know if your kids are there yet, probably so at that age. But it also comes from the kids, who mom? How come you can't, blah, blah, blah, like such and such and such and such moms? How come, you don't pick me up from school every day? Whatever the things are. And so it's me, our job as women, is to get so okay with you. and so in touch with what you deserve, what you need, that whatever anybody has to say to you, you're sort of like, I'm good with me.

And I'm doing it this way. I mean, it's been a long journey. It was not like I came to that overnight, believe me.

Where, yeah, I mean, I don't pick you up from school. You know what I hate? Picking up kids from school. I hate it. I hate the school, I hate waiting. I hate afterwards and everybody has to get all buckled in again and then I wanna snack and everybody's complain. Like all these women I know are like fighting to get their kids from school. I'm like disgusting, no, I hate it. I will always pay somebody to do it because it's the worst to me.

And I'm okay to say that. And I'm a really great mom who shows up in other ways for my kids that don't involve that. So, you know, one question Abby too, you and I, it sounds like we're both married to really nice good guys who align with our philosophy on this. What do you tell the women of the worst land here who are in marriages where them taking some of these actions to center themselves? Even the smallest thing, like making a dinner she likes, that no one else likes.

What do you tell them about how the reaction that may come and then what to do with that? I think that's hard because it depends on the reaction. Like if it's, if it's your normal run-of-the-mill guilt trip that husbands are placing on them or this expectation of like, well, I don't like this. what am I supposed to eat, you know, to all the way from like, the other end of this spectrum of, you know, things get fizzed like, you know that like one small thing really shouldn't set somebody off, but it can lead down into a really dark place. You've got to only you know what that's going to look like,

but for the most part, let's say most people are not in abusive situations, and it's just you're run of the mill, guilt trip, make you feel like a bad mom, what am I supposed to eat? What was me type of bullshit? You just have to learn to get comfortable with pissing people off. You're spouse specifically. Like it's okay. Like it will be okay. You can.

And I go to their worth. Because I think we're so programmed to never have anybody mad at us. And I can just say that. And make little prisons of like what I was thinking is what I would tell her if it was me. I'd say sister, hold the line. Yeah, hold the line. Because you know what? Men respect. Someone who holds the line. And a boundary.

And so it's like, okay, but what they don't respect is they pull one of these manipulate turn things inside out tricks and it works. And then simultaneously do not get what you want and he has information on a way to manipulate you and he respects you even a little bit less because you weren't fierce in holding the line. And it's hard. It may mean there's some icicles in your house for three or four days, but like to fucking bad, this is really crass too. He's eventually gonna wanna get laid, believe me, he'll loosen up eventually. Like I just don't care. Like if you don't wanna eat what I make

and you're hungry, you'll figure it out, buddy. Just like my kids will figure it out too. They can slop together a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. They'll make it. Like you can find something to do. You just have to get comfortable with this idea that you are not here to please everybody else. Like you said, this is your life. You have a preference. You get to have these preferences, but you also have to learn to sit with the uncomfortable feelings.

Process the uncomfortable feelings and work through them to the point where you, that shit just rolls off your back eventually. Do you feel like the women who've been following you for a while and engage and watch your stuff?

How, how do they do with implementing it in their daily life?

Like do you get a lot of feedback of, I tried and it really wasn't so bad or I did try and it was kind of a show and it made me realize I do actually need to get divorced. He's never going to change any such an asshole. Like how does it seem to go when people start to put into practice some of these suggestions that you have? They really realize how like how little they lived for themselves, how little space they they took up and how, and in those those the smallest ways are like, I didn't realize that like just hearing this from somebody gave me this permission that I didn't know I needed. That's most of it. Whenever I talk to women, they already know this, but it's like somebody has to give them

permission to do it. Somebody has to verbally say to them, it's okay for you to take up space. It's okay for you to have preferences. It's okay for you to have hobbies. It's okay for you to find fulfillment outside of being a mom. It's okay for you to seek outside fulfillment of your marriage. And I don't mean like in another relationship, but like things that fulfill you outside of that. Like it's okay. You have permission to do that. And it's like this light bulb goes off. And they're like, oh my God.

You're right. Like I can do that. I can say no. I can do what I wanna do and everybody else will deal with it when the tips fall where they may. So much of it is just this like aha light bulb and then it's like, oh, I did this and now I can do that. I can go to bed when I wanna go to bed. I can have my own space in my house where it's just mine. I can sleep in the guest room where I actually get some fucking sleep for once. It's the one little thing that leads to another that just snowballs and the more you do it, the bigger your-

Your- Okay. centering gets and the things that you do start getting bigger and you take up more space. Well, for me, one thing I was saying about your saying it's okay for this is okay for that. Screaming from my heart was and the world needs it from you. Like my sort of theory in life is our job is to become the like USU there is. Abby's job is to become the most Abby Abby that there is. My job is the most Hannah Hannah there is. And for me, what I'm thinking about is we spend so much of our lives never listening to what we want, at least I can speak for myself, stuffing down our own preferences, our needs,

our wants, our desires, our longings, our hopes, our dreams in service of everybody else. And so then it's like we have to, I mean, the call is to unlearn and to shed and get rid of all of that. And to come fully alive so we can exercise our own potential, become who we need to be. Spread light of awareness through our children of nothing else so they don't get in shit situations. And to everybody else, but it's like, to me it's more than okay and it's your responsibility. Like sister, we need this from you. And there's this element of like, hey, now that you've heard this,

if you do something, like you're being a cop out, like you're copying out, you're avoiding the truth. And like that's okay. Sometimes we're in situations where we just have to eat shit for a while. I mean, sometimes we're in those. And, you know, they have to make that assessment for themselves. I know you talk about that where people are in these crappy situations and people will say to these women, hey, then just leave them then. It's sort of like these people like, if you don't enjoy your kids all the time, then why do you even have any kids? Have you ever been to Chuck E. Cheese?

It's really hard to read on a Saturday afternoon. You don't know what you're talking about. But where they're in these situations where you're like, okay, if he's so bad, why don't you just leave and I've seen your stuff where you talk about like that's one of the most unfair kind of unkind things we could say. So could you tell us a little bit for those women who are in a situation like maybe they tried to make their own dinner. He flew off the handle. He was mean to the kid, you know, the cost wasn't worth it to her. And you know, people her friends are telling, we'll just leave his ass just you gotta leave him, but she's not. What would you tell her?

moms and as women, we push through the shit of whatever it is that we have to do for whatever amount of time. Most of the women I talked to, I think, could probably leave if they wanted to if they weren't so afraid, which is a valid fear. But I think so often it's just, it seems so unfair to me to get angry at women and blame them when systemically and societally we are, it is not set up to benefit women. It's not set up to benefit single woman. It's not set up to benefit married woman. It's not set up to benefit single mothers or divorced mothers or women just period and in general. And so to sit here and tell women to just leave and not look at the other nuances of what that means for them. That might mean losing their health insurance for their high needs child or it might be like, I don't have a job. I've been out of the

job market because I left the workforce to be a state home mom. And have you seen the job market? Like it's bleak out there type of thing. So it's a very privileged place that we tell women to just leave. But a lot of times my very first thing is have you spoken to a divorce lawyer?

Do you know your options? Do you know what this could potentially look like so that at the very least they can have an idea? And this, for whatever reason, when I tell women this, it very much like I can see the anxiety, like I can see their chest tightening. And once I talk to the divorce lawyer, That means they're getting divorced. Like there's something, like if I make that call, it's like a point of no return. It is open. I'm sending those divorce papers now for him

and I'm like, listen to me. This is a recon. You are on a fact finding mission and that is all. You are knowing what has to be the ducks that you need to get in a row so that if you choose to go down this path, you have all of the information possible. This is a baby step in the grand scheme of your life. We are not serving divorce papers. Now you are not signing a retainer right now. You are simply understanding what your rights are, what is available to you, what the whole process.

could look like so that you have and can make the most informed decision as humanly possible. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. Like they're like, okay, yeah, you're right. And I'm like, just do it. Just schedule it. Then call it like send me an email. Like I don't even care. Let me know how it went. What did you find out? How are you feeling? Because more often than not, the like that was really informative.

And now at least I know, it might take me another six months to two years to get all my shit together. But at least no I know and I know what this could look like. Well, an information is power, right? And so in that exact space, I would talk with women all the time who, now by the time they get to me as a divorce lawyer, they may have like waited way too late, made such a mess of things. And then there's some acute situation where they have to do it, or they've been served God forbid. And so there isn't that time. But that's why, so I made this prep course for women called my confident divorce, helping them prepare for divorce, with that losing their kids money and sanity. And it's just having those, there's four things we go through. And having those thoughts in a low pressure, it doesn't even cost you money. It's free. Environment from Zoom, from your house. So you can just think through, okay, like, what shit do I need to have together? What is my parenting actually look like? Like, how would my evidence show up in court and trying to get, and that's definitely the advice I'd

give to your audience for sure is look, if you and your heart of hearts and as women we know. Like you already know if you're listening to this, whether you're going to stay or go in this marriage. And you may be delaying it, you know, avoidance always sends an invoice. So, you know, be careful of that. But if you know, I would absolutely echo what Abby's saying is, you know, You can do the course. You can join our circle for women. It's free online that the circle for women going through divorce and Dylan custody drama. Do the course mine or I'm sure there's other people who's made stuff like that on the computer.

Doing that and what I tell them throughout is like look and you're ready to go and you can go to a divorce letter. The lawyer most of them will take cash so you don't leave a trail. Even if you have to like borrow, you know, $100 five times from your mom or whoever to do it so that you can go up there and have the conversation, leave your phone and your friends if he's tracking you, go in, pay the money, and at least understand. And then you have the information. But I think times people stay in that invisible prison with the key in their pocket because like, well, I don't know. And you know, especially I feel such a heart for the women who've been staying at home parents. And what they're supposed to do, how are they even supposed to get the $500? If there was a retainer, they'd have to ask him for the credit card. So it's like, have you seen that judge Judy Klipp where she talks about how women should never give up

like their ability to make a living and that financial independence, right? So next time around, we're never gonna get completely on an island where we're cut off from access to any of our own money. But if that's your situation now, I think doing that prep work And it helps calm down your lizard brain and the anxiety. And there's this thing I learned in managing my team and being a leader of a business a while back. And it's a concept of a decision has been made. And it's sort of like this claim.

It's just line in the sand. Like say some employees, it's not working out and you know in your heart, it's not gonna work long term. But you also can't cut your nose despite face and immediately fire them because whatever reason. So then you know, okay, a decision has been made. And that person, although they haven't left yet, I know it's not gonna work out and I'm gonna start planning until that time. So for these women who don't feel like divorce is an option to them right now. I would also tell them, look,

you can also in your own mind be like, a decision's been made, okay. Gathering the information, it doesn't mean you have to do it right now. You can start to do, and I would advise you, subtle things along the way to get prepared for you to walk into a completely different life. But the way you talk about it, Abby, I felt convicted at first. Like when I first saw that about people telling them just leave and I had to like really think through my own heart, like as that always my advice to be like just leave. And ultimately no, I would never tell a woman just leave without a plan. Like and this happens. People come to my office like after the fall for divorce Today, I need you to file it by five o'clock tomorrow. Bra-ra-ra-ra.

And they don't, like, okay, sis, all the credit cards are in his name and you're just a cardholder. So when he cuts off your credit cards, how are you gonna put your gas in your car? How are you gonna buy groceries? Like, what are you gonna do? And helping them think through that. So that nuance for people. But I think if they can access this idea of you can make the decision and not immediately leave, perhaps that can relieve some of their anxiety.

around living that out. Yeah, and that information, because a lot of times we're, we're catastrophizing it, right? We're going, well, my life will never be the same. I'm gonna be broke. I'm gonna be poor. How am I gonna for my kids? How am I gonna, not in five years. We're talking right now. Within the next two months, what's something that you can do?

You can gather this information. And then with that information, what you know, two months later, what can you do? take those small check marks off of your list instead of looking like in your entire lifetime span, we're talking like month to month, day to day even, versus this whole catastrophe that we start spinning and spiraling out on. When I think to for the women in this situation, it's like,

what I also wish they could do, there's the prep for the divorce that sort of assumes you know this outcome, that this marriage is not for you, et cetera. The advice I had to give my younger self, and that would even give myself within the context of my own current forever marriage, is my intention.

Would be, are you willing to also look at your own shit a little bit here? I mean, like, yeah, yeah, they got a lot of shit. Us women, you know, we probably bring a lot of shit. We're probably living out our dad issues on top of him too.

And there's that piece. So what I would tell myself and the women back in that spot too is in this version of centering yourself. Can you also, would you have the strength in the courage to look in and just sort of your own self-reflection and your own self-assessment? Could you begin to heal some of those wounds that you keep in these patterns? You keep living day and day and year and year? Could you do that with the help of a therapist while you're sending yourself with the help of friends, you know, even the people online and stuff like that.

Could you begin to do that work on you so that if as and when it turns out this marriage is not for you, that you don't bring forward all your same shit. Now I'm not trying to say like, you know, that, that if you change, like you're doing that even necessarily to keep that marriage, although, if you do that work, you may find that perhaps there were just some things we needed to do as we grow up, because a lot of us get married young. You know, even when I got remarried in my early 30s,

I had a lot of growing up too. I brought all my same shit and did it fortunately within the context of my marriage and learned a lot and went through a lot and did the work on myself. So it's like in recentering yourself, I think, yes, making that dinner and doing those things, can you also prioritize? And I think you talk about this Abby, prioritize your own growth. Your own. Where you wanna get to, can you also do that piece

in addition to the, let's have, you know, some more hobbies? I don't think you go into that, but do you counsel people to do that piece? And like, if so, do you ever see changes with like, oh, actually maybe I don't need to leave? Like we've worked in through it. I don't think I've ever had somebody go actually. It's not so bad. Oh really. Because I think the thing, at least I will say with most of the women that I talk to

and that I work with is that women are already the first ones to get help. Women are already the first ones who are going to therapy solo for themselves. They're also the ones trying to find couples counseling and couples therapy. They're trying to find therapy solo for their husbands. We know that women are the first ones to try to fix themselves. Statistically we make up the largest part of the self-help market. So women tend to do that a lot because we're always told, like, well, if you have a problem, then you need to fix it. And so then we think, well, I must be the problem because I'm the only one bringing up issues in my marriage. So I should fix that. So we go and we go to therapy and we listen to podcasts and we consume the content and

we join the groups and we try all these different things. And that might not be dissecting and getting to the heart of a lot of the issues, but a lot of the women that I work with and that I talk to are already helping themselves in that regard. They're already understanding the patterns. I think more somewhere than anything, it would be healing from their current situation. Because they're more so like surviving it and using tools and mechanisms to put into place to continue to survive it versus eventually healing from it when they can leave. Which is something I don't think that they might be anticipating or ready for, but that they should absolutely be planning on doing. Yeah, you know, one question for you, Abby, that I was thinking like how so say that woman who's listening to us is like, you know, tuned in for whatever reason. She saw clip online and thought, oh, those two gals are cute. I'm a Muslim in them.

How does she know that she's in a marriage that's just surviving like how does she identify. Are there any markers that would let her know that we're talking to her? Like that she's not in the right situation or that she needs to do this work. Like how would she know you're talking to her? I think a lot of it would be around unresolved issues. You're having the same conversations or you're having the same arguments or you are consistently invalidated, you're walking on eggshells, you're exhausted, you know that you can't bring something up because you know exactly how it's going to go. Even though it's really bothering you and it's probably starting to eat away when you're feeling really resentful. And you're just tired because you don't think that anything will ever change and you've had the same conversations and you know, you've tried all the different ways, you've implemented all the different strategies, you've, you know, waited and tried to talk to him in different ways and, and, and softer tones

and brought things up at better times. And you just know it ain't gonna happen. It's just not there. There is no movement forward for this anymore. And you are thoroughly exhausted. And I think Most women, I think, deep, deep, deep down, they know. They know that this will never resolve itself, that these issues will forever be there because they've always been there. They know because they've had the conversation time and time and time and time and time and time again, and it never resolves. It might be a patch where he resolves to do better, and there's two weeks where he's trying and everything's looking up and it's okay.

And then you're right back and you're like, Wait a second. What just happened here? I'm back in the same spot again. Yeah, one thing I was thinking about too, what I used to call that whole, if you have to really strategize about the way you bring things to your partner, it might be a clue you should listen up. So like I used to call them time place manner restrictions so in a con law when you're analyzing like free speech in a public forum situation,

there can be time place and manner restrictions. Like when you can do it and how you can do it in whatever, in the law. So I would used to explain, like, oh, the way that my experts say things, like, well, you brought it up at the wrong time or the way that you said et cetera. So I can't have to have a time place and manner restriction every time I'm gonna bring something to you, just sort of dance around the exact right moment to say how I feel. So that's like, how to think about it.

If you're strategizing the way to sort of like, not necessarily manipulate, but just like to tip toe your way through the eye of a needle with this person you're married to, it may be a clue that there's something amiss. And then the other thing to me, the way that I knew that I would just sort of add on to what you're saying is this, malaise this on we this feeling of I wasn't looking forward to anything anymore. And I wasn't the things I used to look forward to going vacation, one day retiring, whatever. I was like, yeah, I mean, if I retire, then that just means I went this fella. And I wasn't, I didn't enjoy anything anymore. It's like everything kind of became beige. Everything is working out. Everything is a chore and a job.

Yeah. So those were some ways they might know. Well, Abby, okay, this has been awesome. I could talk to you for a thousand for ever is about all of this stuff. But we've got a few questions that we ask every guest just to kind of get your take. And my first question is what's been shaken you lately? When Abinai recording this, there's been a lot of hot stuff going on in our country. So I have a sense of what she might think, but what's been shaken you lately? I think what's been shaking me lately has been a lot of double standards that we hear about that I think anytime I share about double standards of men and women and husbands and followers versus mothers I get a lot of shake up and a lot of angry angry angry men and somehow as of late there's been a very large uptick in hateful DMs that I've gotten from men specifically so I will keep it at double standards that people really hate having the mayor held up to their face for.

For me, what's been shaking me lately is real, I mean, in addition, everything that's going on, just sort of like current event type stuff.

The question of like in my world, a lot of people always told me like, you've got to find your why. Why are you doing this? Like as this driver for life and there all it feels to me, like all this time, they'd lecture me about how I need to find what's your why? And they'd want you to have like there's that Simon Sinek guy talks about finding your why driving from your why and then I'd ask these people in these conferences and things I've go to like, okay, but what if I'm not 100% sure what it is like, how do I figure out what it is and then I would always get these like blank stares back at me. And they're just like, oh wait, so you're just going to like sort of judge me slash mildly shame me that I need to have it. it. But then you're not willing to tell me what it is. It was like a diagnosis without a prescription. I'm not a practice like whatever. So anyway, I've been noodling around on a talk and doing some thoughts about like how to get to your wife. You don't know. So I've been thinking about that. Okay. Now the name of the show is not saving it for later. So whenever you first saw that, was there, did it evoke anything for yours?

Are there anything you say for later? You find yourself doing it or like what came up for you when you think about not saving it for later. I think when I think about not saving it for later, I think of just how society constantly tells women, essentially, to save it for later. It's not that big of a deal. Like, you don't need to bring it up right now. You don't need to speak about it right now. You're making this too big of a deal. So for me, I agree. Yeah, like when somebody's like, oh, just save it for later.

They really mean like, shut the fuck up about it right now. I don't want to hear it. Never. Never. They don't actually want you to save it for any of any of the time. They just want you to be quiet right now because you're shaking their comfortability without things currently are. Yeah. I know for me, like, I'll find myself the dumbest things ever still, like, even though I talk about this all the time. But for me this year, all of 2026 for me, it's joy and not put joy on layaway that I'm going to get to it later. And I was listening to the Benjamin Hardy book about Be Your Future Self now. And I was just kind of listening to that and realized that he was giving these three steps kind of something something like, get your three goals contextual. Oh, so at your contextual purpose, like what's your purpose right now?

Like what are the top three things? And number one, I thought, man, this has written such like a man, you know, top three ways. very abstract concepts of one, two, three. Anyways, and on those, I listed like two accomplishments I wanted to do this year. And then the last one, I was like, oh, and because we talked about it as your priority and where your focus is and your behaviors. And I put on my third one, experience more joy. And I put it right up there with right my book, right? Like get those things done and putting that emphasis on it. So for me, the whole year is about like trying to, you know, I've done all these accomplishments and different things. Sure. And for a lot of that put the enjoyment of it for later. So try not to do that. Um, okay. Last thing. So if you could only tell the women of divorce land, um, one thing, give them one sort of piece of parting advice. What would you tell them? Think and act like your husband.

I love it. I love it. It's so interesting and it's hilarious because it seems radical. And it's not. And I think, you know, one of, I didn't really consider this before we started talking how woven the worth component is into that. is into that because when you're willing to quote unquote act like your husband slash say the things that is not my preference make your own dinner something in you has claimed that next level of worth expanded your sphere expanded your the space you're willing to take up and so like my parting thought on all this would be y'all if you're listening it doesn't have to be like all of a sudden your heinous bitch who doesn't care about kids in her husband. But do what Abby said, can you take one small step where you are the main character of your life? Where you honor your own preference and something that you care about.

And just like I talk about, you don't get brave and courageous in a deposit. You don't center yourself or find your worth with this whole huge deposit. You realize it one little bit at a time and then you know you have it by looking in your rear view mirror. And so that's how you know you're courageous because you've done a bunch of scary shit and didn't die and you keep going. And find your worth. even if you're not able to fully join me in Abby, like you can borrow our faith in you, that you are worthy because you exist. And you deserve to have a happy life because you're a human being. And I imagine you're a good person and a good woman

and a good mom who's doing the best that she can. I have to believe that's true if you've made it this far. And even if you're unwilling to like double down on a complete like baptismal immersion in that feeling, what if you made plants and everybody else had plants? Just once. And then when everybody doesn't die. And the world doesn't end. And maybe some of y'all will be in a situation where you might be pleasantly surprised. Maybe it kind of goes good.

Maybe it's not that hard and difficult. So I think just a hard takeaway would be what's one thing you can do today to center yourself in your own life because you are the main character of your own movie. Okay, thank you, Abby. Thank you so much for doing this. I was looking forward to this so much. And you're exactly what you appear online. I think that's why it's so successful is because people can feel that. And thanks for spending the time with us.

Yeah, thank you, Hannah. I appreciate it. Abby, people are gonna wanna follow you and get into your world. How can they do that? Like, do you do offers? Do you have courses, groups? How can people know more about you and the work that you offer? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at abeecol. Facebook, I'm the abeecol. And then abeecol.com.

Okay, that's all of us. All right, y'all follow her. It is truly my favorite follow right now. I'm not just saying that because you're on here. But you know how people you interact with, like top fans or whatever is like your abeecol's top fan. I'm like, yes, I'm not my fucking mom. I'm my dad. Mm-hmm. Okay, all right, thanks, Abbie. Thank you.

Timestamped Transcript

[00:00:00.00] I think once women realize they deserve more than what they've gotten than what they've been told to ask for.

[00:00:06.72] When I think things really start to click into place, most of the women I talk to you and have worked with see it.

[00:00:11.60] They've seen it for a long time. They know the invisible prison. They just don't think that they deserve more than that.

[00:00:17.28] That they're worth more than that. That they don't even believe that they could possibly ask for more than that.

[00:00:22.00] No that it's not going to get them anywhere so the grass couldn't possibly be greener.

[00:00:26.00] And I think part of that problem is that women always think about the green

[00:00:29.52] or grass being another man.

[00:00:31.72] Let's be honest, most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down

[00:00:38.08] to save it for later.

[00:00:40.16] Later when the kids are grown later, when the timing's right, later when you

[00:00:45.36] finally stop caring what they think.

[00:00:48.88] Well, I'm done waiting.

[00:00:52.32] I'm Hannah himbrie Bell, Texas Divorce Lawyer, mom, and woman who rebuilt her life from

[00:00:58.28] the wreckage.

[00:00:59.60] This is not saving it for later.

[00:01:01.84] The podcast, guiding women through divorce and beyond.

[00:01:05.28] Alright, everybody, welcome to Not Saving It For Later with your host, Hannah himbrie

[00:01:10.36] Bell.

[00:01:11.36] I am here today with someone I am so excited for you all to meet and like personally

[00:01:15.36] fan-girling myself to meet.

[00:01:17.68] We have a guest Abby Ekel.

[00:01:20.16] I have been following her for a while now online.

[00:01:24.12] And I was like, she's gonna be like,

[00:01:25.92] who is this girl liking every literal single one

[00:01:28.64] of my posts is she a bot or what?

[00:01:31.40] But not really.

[00:01:32.40] She just so resonated with me in this fresh, authentic

[00:01:37.40] sort of contra perspective from a lot

[00:01:39.88] of the like toxic positivity divorce talk

[00:01:42.52] that's kind of out there.

[00:01:43.76] So that's how I get to her.

[00:01:45.20] So we're gonna go on this journey together.

[00:01:47.48] I know all of y'all are gonna follow her

[00:01:48.96] if you don't already after this, but Abby,

[00:01:51.12] you wanna tell us a little bit more about you,

[00:01:52.72] like what got you into this universe

[00:01:56.00] kind of given men the business?

[00:01:57.72] Oh, gosh.

[00:01:59.20] Let's see, I've been creating this type of content

[00:02:01.80] for maybe about six years now.

[00:02:04.84] And I really,

[00:02:06.68] and honestly, when we moved into our neighborhood now,

[00:02:10.92] I was talking to some of our neighbors

[00:02:14.12] And they were like, where's Mike?

[00:02:17.12] Where's your husband?

[00:02:18.12] And I was like, oh, it's his week to cook.

[00:02:19.60] So he's inside making dinner.

[00:02:21.64] And they were like, he's cooking.

[00:02:24.60] And I was like, yeah, well, it's his week to cook.

[00:02:26.72] And I put the kids to bed.

[00:02:28.56] And then next week, it'll be my week to cook.

[00:02:30.60] And he'll put the kids to bed.

[00:02:32.84] And they were dumbfounded, confused.

[00:02:38.68] Does it put it differently?

[00:02:40.16] They were like, I don't understand your husband,

[00:02:42.28] and does bedtime routine.

[00:02:44.28] And I was like, yeah, okay, yours doesn't.

[00:02:49.28] And it really opened this strange,

[00:02:53.18] like Pandora's box for me that I started talking about it

[00:02:57.98] on TikTok.

[00:02:58.98] And I started talking about domestic labor

[00:03:02.88] and how my husband and I split chores

[00:03:04.68] and how my husband and I participate in, you know,

[00:03:07.48] raising our kids and the mental labor

[00:03:10.38] and the invisible labor.

[00:03:12.30] And people were just like, all struck and dumbfounded

[00:03:15.94] and so confused.

[00:03:17.22] And I got my first role taste of the true inequities

[00:03:21.58] of cishet marriages.

[00:03:23.86] And then somebody gave me,

[00:03:26.22] or no, my therapist at the time was like,

[00:03:27.70] hey, you should read fair play by Yiv Rotsky.

[00:03:31.70] And I was like, oh, great, yeah, so I did,

[00:03:33.74] and I loved it.

[00:03:35.14] And at the time, it really felt like something

[00:03:38.10] that I could give women that felt tangible of a way

[00:03:42.34] to actually more fairly distribute the labor

[00:03:45.94] because everybody kept asking me,

[00:03:47.34] like, well, what did you do?

[00:03:48.54] How did you train your husband?

[00:03:50.46] Those types of questions, and I was like,

[00:03:51.94] I didn't.

[00:03:53.62] We didn't sit down and have this conversation of,

[00:03:55.86] you do this, and I do this, and we split it this way,

[00:03:58.18] and then we reconvene, and we shake things up again.

[00:04:01.46] We just did.

[00:04:02.94] There wasn't really a time where it was like,

[00:04:04.42] Hey, I'm tired of doing everything all of my own.

[00:04:08.54] We have to figure something out.

[00:04:09.58] This isn't fair.

[00:04:11.26] We never had that.

[00:04:12.38] And so I didn't know what to tell those people.

[00:04:14.14] I wanted something concrete to help women in these situations.

[00:04:18.62] And then I ultimately got to a point where I was actually

[00:04:21.70] fair play still is not the answer.

[00:04:23.26] It's a band-aid.

[00:04:24.38] And the root problem is that nobody thinks

[00:04:28.34] what women do is valuable.

[00:04:30.14] And nobody thinks the work that women do is valuable

[00:04:32.74] and our labor and all the things I mean.

[00:04:34.94] Yeah, until it's fucking gone, I guess.

[00:04:37.34] Exactly.

[00:04:38.50] Exactly.

[00:04:40.38] Yeah, so yeah, I just kind of,

[00:04:43.14] once I started reading about it,

[00:04:44.42] I never really stopped and I never shut up about it.

[00:04:48.14] So what do you think the root cause of that happening is?

[00:04:51.90] So like in your situation, I appreciate that.

[00:04:53.94] Like I learned this lesson

[00:04:55.74] and getting into a more fair play marriage,

[00:04:59.62] the hard way by being in a completely not supportive marriage.

[00:05:03.82] The first time around got divorced

[00:05:05.14] and am now in a situation much more like that.

[00:05:07.86] But like, what do you think is the underlying cause

[00:05:11.82] of so many women being in these marriages?

[00:05:14.70] Or like, or the men acting like that?

[00:05:17.10] Like, what do you think causes this?

[00:05:20.78] Personally, in my humble opinion,

[00:05:22.70] I think it's societal conditioning for women,

[00:05:26.34] we saw it.

[00:05:27.18] I saw it.

[00:05:28.38] I don't know other than like, I don't know how I got to where I am other than like, I

[00:05:32.30] saw the blueprint myself and was like, I don't want that.

[00:05:36.90] So I like went rogue in the exact opposite way.

[00:05:40.10] But I think for so many women, it is this conditioning.

[00:05:44.02] It's this invisible timeline that we've been told since, you know, birth that like,

[00:05:50.62] your highest calling is to be a mother and to get married and have babies and nothing else

[00:05:55.46] in this world could ever be more fulfilling.

[00:05:57.42] But hurry, because you're running out of time, because you don't have that much time to find

[00:06:00.14] a man, because your looks are going to fade.

[00:06:02.50] And then after 30 year worthless, and nobody wants you and you're not pretty.

[00:06:05.42] And like all of these, anyway, believe me anyway, are like drilled into our heads as young

[00:06:11.58] girls.

[00:06:12.74] And so, and not only that, then on top of that, we see that like, well men are just stupid

[00:06:17.22] and men are just dumb.

[00:06:18.22] And you can't really expect too much from men.

[00:06:19.78] You can't expect them to be emotionally intelligent and go to work.

[00:06:23.10] like, you can't expect them to chew gum and walk at the same time.

[00:06:26.54] So we're like, well, shit, I better hurry up

[00:06:30.18] and just take the first thing that comes across my plate

[00:06:32.46] because somebody actually wants me.

[00:06:34.42] And I don't think we ever give women the permission

[00:06:36.70] to like think for themselves.

[00:06:38.34] Like is this what I want or has this been conditioned

[00:06:41.46] into me to be what I want?

[00:06:43.82] And we're like, we don't like reach that until we're older

[00:06:47.94] until our 30s and our 40s and we've been through the shit.

[00:06:50.74] We've had that world lived experience

[00:06:52.66] were like. But then it's sometimes too late. Yeah, for I'm like your literal avatar. So

[00:06:58.42] that's exactly what happened to me. I met my ex husband. So I have three big kids with my

[00:07:03.30] ex husband. And I met him when I was 20. I got married at 21. And I kind of thought I was a little

[00:07:09.46] late at the time. I went off to a small Christian college. And at that point, and I grew up going

[00:07:18.42] on a church and stuff.

[00:07:19.62] And spent my entire life feeling like I was all wrong.

[00:07:23.02] Because I was bold and all these other things,

[00:07:25.34] but then at church they'd be quoting the Bible at me

[00:07:27.46] and how women are supposed to be submissive to men.

[00:07:29.54] And these little church boy, now I'd say,

[00:07:32.66] pussy ass bitches would say to me all the time,

[00:07:35.66] how, oh, you're too much, you're not being submissive.

[00:07:39.46] Like I was all wrong.

[00:07:40.62] So then I go to the small Christian school,

[00:07:43.66] net net because I was just afraid to do anything else.

[00:07:45.70] And I went off and did that

[00:07:47.42] and then met a bunch more of them

[00:07:49.30] who were just a few years older.

[00:07:50.94] And then that's how they all treated me.

[00:07:53.06] So here I am, being my own,

[00:07:55.14] this little, little bitty or version of my own self,

[00:07:58.26] and thought I was all wrong.

[00:08:00.54] And so I went and started serving tables

[00:08:03.06] and met a guy who wasn't a part of the whole church circle.

[00:08:06.46] And it was the first one who wasn't like,

[00:08:08.02] hey, would you submit, like,

[00:08:09.98] we went men or the leaders of the household,

[00:08:11.66] that holds kind of church language.

[00:08:13.06] And so, and it was the first person at the time,

[00:08:16.18] how it seemed, which is funny how it all turned out, that who would let me be the bigger

[00:08:20.82] more bold version of me? That's not how it played out in the end, but that's how it was

[00:08:25.48] then. And so immediately, and he wanted me done, like that's, we're done. And I was married

[00:08:30.58] and wasn't until I was turning 30. I think it happens to a lot of us. She started to kind

[00:08:35.22] of wake up of like, healthy hell. Did I get myself into this situation? And he'd go later,

[00:08:42.70] God, I wish there wasn't really even Facebook or anything back then when I was getting

[00:08:45.62] I'm 42 so that wasn't really a thing.

[00:08:48.46] And I didn't have people like you explaining how it could be.

[00:08:50.94] I just thought, you know, you go up to college

[00:08:53.50] and you get married and then kids.

[00:08:56.54] But then I did exactly that and looked around in my life

[00:09:00.50] and was like, after I had my second one,

[00:09:03.82] I had kids like, real close together.

[00:09:05.66] After my second one, I remember just like,

[00:09:07.70] ball in my eyes out and like, yeah, I've had two now.

[00:09:11.82] So if I already knew in my heart,

[00:09:13.50] like this was not the right marriage.

[00:09:15.98] But now no man's ever gonna want me

[00:09:17.54] because I've got two kids, that's different.

[00:09:20.14] That's just the one.

[00:09:21.10] And it kept me there for long,

[00:09:22.74] I even had another baby, whatever.

[00:09:24.58] So I received sort of what you're talking about

[00:09:28.98] with the church layer to the whole thing,

[00:09:31.46] in Texas, that whole piece.

[00:09:34.22] And really my life has been about unlearning.

[00:09:37.14] And similar to you trying to help other women unlearn

[00:09:40.22] that conditioning, like I really appreciate

[00:09:42.82] you said about moms. And it was hard for me in the beginning being a mom. And even when

[00:09:48.58] my now has a so plot winner got forced remarried to drew awesome guy when he praised me as a mom.

[00:09:54.26] And I'm like, I'm so much more than just a mom. Like stop listing one of the top three things

[00:09:58.34] you love about me is I'm this great mom.

[00:10:00.00] Yeah, okay, but what about me as the person like that?

[00:10:03.88] That's about them and I tell people all the time you don't have to go any further than the

[00:10:09.92] The greeting card aisle at Walgreens on Mother's Day to see what a bunch of hook line and sink are we've all bought it

[00:10:17.52] All of them will say like you gave up everything for me you sacrifice everything

[00:10:21.88] You know, there's that quote about mothers and how it's like oh, what's a mother the one who sees there's the last piece of pie

[00:10:27.28] and then suddenly she doesn't want any pie.

[00:10:29.36] And that's how we're praised and how we're valued

[00:10:32.60] and to wrestle with that inside the marriage.

[00:10:37.60] And then that inside yourself,

[00:10:39.80] when your identity has been sucked

[00:10:41.00] by these little children who want you non-stop all the time.

[00:10:44.16] So you've got them in reinforcing what they've learned

[00:10:47.36] and what they've seen and what they want out of you, right?

[00:10:49.92] And so that build, I think, don't you,

[00:10:54.44] that it creates this,

[00:10:56.72] I'm almost seeing like an invisible prison around people.

[00:10:59.44] Now they've got the key in their own pocket

[00:11:01.32] and the key is awareness

[00:11:02.72] and the key is making a different decision.

[00:11:05.16] But do you find in the work that you do

[00:11:07.40] that it's difficult for women to see that sort of invisible

[00:11:11.80] prison and then have the courage to do something about it

[00:11:15.68] in the face of all that societal pressure?

[00:11:18.52] I think more than anything that key is women

[00:11:24.24] believing that they deserve more.

[00:11:26.68] Um, once I think once women realize that they deserve more than what they've gotten,

[00:11:36.32] than what they've been told to ask for, that is when I think things really start to click

[00:11:41.72] into place. Um, because it is this like, they see it. I think, I think all the women for

[00:11:48.72] the most part, I would say most of the women I talk to and have worked with see it.

[00:11:52.92] They've seen it for a long time.

[00:11:54.40] They know the invisible prison that they're in.

[00:11:57.32] They just don't think that they deserve more than that.

[00:12:00.72] They don't think that they're worth more than that.

[00:12:04.52] Or that they don't even believe that they could possibly ask for more than that.

[00:12:08.32] Or they've asked previously and they know that it's not going to get them anywhere.

[00:12:11.16] So, you know, what's the point?

[00:12:12.60] The grass couldn't possibly be greener.

[00:12:14.80] And I think part of that problem is that women always think about the greener grass being

[00:12:19.60] another man.

[00:12:21.68] I think a lot of older women and divorce women or single older women will tell you it's you.

[00:12:32.12] You're the green or grass girl.

[00:12:34.92] It's just you.

[00:12:37.04] We kind of get this ability to be like, oh, we don't actually have to have another person

[00:12:43.20] to feel worthy and valuable.

[00:12:45.48] I can fill those things myself or I can.

[00:12:48.32] If I want to, I can, but I know that I don't have to lower my standards for anything,

[00:12:53.92] but I think so many women don't believe that these are more because I think you said

[00:12:59.52] and what was told to me, was it like nobody else will want you?

[00:13:03.32] Right.

[00:13:04.32] That's certainly how I felt after two kids.

[00:13:08.96] I was dating this guy one time and he was telling something his dad had told him, like,

[00:13:12.96] okay, if a woman cheats on a man, he'll leave her.

[00:13:17.00] But the man, she's on the woman a lot of them will stay because she doesn't understand

[00:13:20.52] her worth.

[00:13:21.52] I don't know if this one-off comment that he told his son.

[00:13:25.64] And to me, my takeaway was just like the worth component.

[00:13:28.56] And I do a lot of work with women, you know, consider it before during an after divorce.

[00:13:34.68] And I did this webinar one time.

[00:13:36.68] And I wasn't even mean in to talk about this, but we were talking about how to get prepared

[00:13:40.00] for divorce.

[00:13:41.64] And in that, the comments on this, it was a live webinar.

[00:13:45.56] So it's like in the Zoom comments, somebody was saying, well, I don't know if I deserve

[00:13:49.40] better.

[00:13:50.40] And I was like, hold the phone, the whole webinar just whatever my slides didn't

[00:13:54.12] care.

[00:13:55.12] And we just went into like preach mode and spent the next 20 minutes.

[00:13:58.26] And this phrase that I now say all the time just came through, through me of really speaking

[00:14:03.32] into these women's hearts to say, you are worthy because you exist.

[00:14:08.00] You don't have to earn it.

[00:14:10.40] don't have to repent for it. You don't have to beg for it. There's that Mary all over poem, I think

[00:14:14.80] is called Wild Geese, where she talks about like you don't have to, you know, crawl across the

[00:14:20.16] desert with in just our job is just to allow our soft body to love what it loves. And I think

[00:14:27.44] so much of our lives are spent earning it. And whether it's a parent, society like all of it.

[00:14:32.88] And so for these women to understand worth and that your worth isn't tied to whether or not

[00:14:39.92] you're chosen by man. And I think that's what it comes down to, right? And we even watch that

[00:14:43.68] in proud and prejudiced. It's just all of history, the way it's been. And now for the first

[00:14:50.00] generation, right, we can all get credit cards, bank accounts, own properties, own businesses,

[00:14:55.12] vote, all of these things that we can do as women now. And it's this unlearning, I think,

[00:15:00.00] collectively, I just like keep going forever. Unlearning collectively that we have to shake off

[00:15:05.36] this ancestral learning and this ancestral trauma of like, we had to have a man so that we could

[00:15:12.56] exist. And we're not that far from when that was the reality. It wasn't that long ago.

[00:15:17.52] It's definitely. And you know, I think accessing that enables me and probably you do too,

[00:15:21.92] Abby, like to access compassion for these women that their mothers likely did not grow up

[00:15:28.32] in the same freedom that we have. And so we're the first, you know, this kind of 30s, 40s,

[00:15:33.84] you're a woman, the first kind of generation where fully able to do all the things. And so

[00:15:40.40] with that power comes great responsibility to make a different choice to choose a different

[00:15:49.44] outcome for yourself. But I find that in my divorce of all time. These women think they're not

[00:15:53.68] going to jump out of this situation until they're into another situation. And we talk about that

[00:15:57.44] on the show and talk about it all the time. What you're going to do is get yourself out of the

[00:16:01.20] the frying pan and into the fire. You're going to be right back in the same

[00:16:04.62] shit sandwich that you got yourself in because you didn't heal yourself. And

[00:16:08.58] I admit that like even when I first got remarried, I was in pick me energy.

[00:16:14.10] Right. I needed to be chosen. I wanted to be wanted and wasn't fully

[00:16:20.06] awake enough and owning my worth enough and making the decision from choice,

[00:16:25.54] not from compulsion. And I think that that work, calling people to that work is, it's

[00:16:35.86] nuanced and trying to get them to understand it when they're in the thick of it is hard.

[00:16:40.78] But I think you do a really good job at this. And what I'm kind of wondering if this

[00:16:44.64] piece is together, Abby, you're called to women to center themselves in their own life.

[00:16:50.54] like we can talk about the like just leave thing in a minute.

[00:16:54.14] But when if you're willing to center yourself,

[00:16:59.26] make yourself the main character in your own life,

[00:17:01.46] if you're willing to do that,

[00:17:04.10] then it indirectly tells me,

[00:17:06.46] I mean, don't you, is this what you think?

[00:17:07.70] Like indirectly that woman has said,

[00:17:10.22] I'm something in here has said,

[00:17:13.06] the way this is going is not okay with me anymore.

[00:17:16.14] And I deserve something better.

[00:17:20.18] Do you think that's inherent in what they're doing?

[00:17:21.90] If they're willing to do the work with you

[00:17:23.78] or follow your lead and putting themselves at the center?

[00:17:26.98] Yeah, it's really difficult

[00:17:29.38] because I think when I tell women like center yourself,

[00:17:32.94] they think, they tend to think of automatically like,

[00:17:35.94] okay, well that means I have to find a hobby,

[00:17:38.42] I have to get out of the house for this hobby.

[00:17:40.66] I have to like take time for myself away

[00:17:42.82] from my kids and my family and...

[00:17:45.50] And it's not much money.

[00:17:46.78] Yeah, spend it on too money or find a babysitter

[00:17:49.18] And then I'm like, then I feel guilty

[00:17:51.14] because I left the kids and I know that my husband's not

[00:17:53.06] great with the kids and I,

[00:17:54.18] and then it ruins the entire point of you centering yourself.

[00:17:57.54] And so much of centering yourself is in such small ways

[00:18:00.94] that until somebody tells it to you,

[00:18:02.86] you don't even realize that you're doing it.

[00:18:04.70] And so when I made a video where I said,

[00:18:07.02] you know, sometimes choosing yourself isn't getting divorced,

[00:18:10.58] it's making a dinner that you like,

[00:18:12.42] even if everybody else hates it.

[00:18:14.26] Oh my God, that's my favorite video.

[00:18:15.82] Yes.

[00:18:16.66] And they were that common for you,

[00:18:17.94] The brads and chads, we're gonna murder you over that.

[00:18:20.78] You would have thought, yeah, I don't know,

[00:18:24.10] but I was like, wow, okay,

[00:18:25.82] we'll got lots of feelings here.

[00:18:27.38] But it is those things.

[00:18:28.94] And it's one of those really small things

[00:18:30.94] where we stop making the foods that we like

[00:18:33.38] because majority of our family will need it.

[00:18:35.86] Or our husband doesn't like it.

[00:18:37.06] Like when I grew up, my mom loved fried chicken.

[00:18:40.22] She loved it and she would make homemade fried chicken

[00:18:42.78] or on a very rare special occasion

[00:18:44.42] she would go and get fried chicken.

[00:18:46.14] But my dad had to be sick or not in the mood or out of town because he hated it.

[00:18:52.66] And it was, it's like those tiny little things.

[00:18:56.78] Like if we think about like, set the thermama set at your preferred setting,

[00:19:01.22] all thermostat recommendations are based off of men's bodies,

[00:19:03.82] which is why most of us are cold as fuck when we're in offices or when we're in hotel rooms or conferences or even in our own homes.

[00:19:10.86] Because men are always like, you see the videos where kids are messing with the thermostat and dads are there to always

[00:19:16.10] you know, get on their ass about it.

[00:19:18.58] It's dads and men center themselves naturally by default.

[00:19:24.52] And women's default setting is to center everybody else.

[00:19:28.50] It feels foreign.

[00:19:29.46] It feels uncomfortable.

[00:19:30.50] We feel bad.

[00:19:31.42] We feel guilty.

[00:19:32.78] But when we take those like really tiny steps,

[00:19:35.82] like I told women like, hey, schedule something

[00:19:39.26] in the middle of a time,

[00:19:40.26] everybody else has shit to do too.

[00:19:42.78] Oh my God.

[00:19:43.86] My kids have soccer at six.

[00:19:45.10] You know what, I wanna take a hot yoga class at 6.30.

[00:19:48.38] I'm gonna go and do that.

[00:19:50.10] And you know what, everybody will live.

[00:19:53.18] Like you have the choice.

[00:19:54.34] Everybody has a choice.

[00:19:55.54] A lot of women, we do a choice.

[00:19:57.86] So sometimes we're like, I can't do that.

[00:20:00.00] I can't, no, you can do that.

[00:20:02.48] You can.

[00:20:03.68] You have the choice to do it.

[00:20:05.48] Will it cause you some discomfort?

[00:20:07.08] Will it cause other people some discomfort?

[00:20:09.48] It's whether or not you're willing to,

[00:20:11.52] you know, to forego that or not.

[00:20:12.84] That's not.

[00:20:13.68] The consequences.

[00:20:14.52] Feel the discomfort.

[00:20:15.72] Feel the, you know, the heat from other people

[00:20:18.36] and your household.

[00:20:19.28] And sometimes for some women and their situations,

[00:20:21.28] that's not worth it.

[00:20:22.12] And I get that too.

[00:20:23.72] But sometimes it's those really small things.

[00:20:25.96] Like once I sit down for dinner,

[00:20:27.64] I'm not getting the fuck out of my seat until I finish.

[00:20:31.14] I'm not getting anything from my children.

[00:20:34.08] I'm not getting anything for anybody else.

[00:20:36.08] You will wait until I'm done.

[00:20:37.52] I like to eat my food when it's hot and ready.

[00:20:41.24] Then once I'm finished, sure.

[00:20:43.36] I will help you.

[00:20:44.20] I'll get you something else.

[00:20:45.40] And sometimes that means I eat

[00:20:47.00] before everybody in my family.

[00:20:48.88] I'm not like sit down.

[00:20:49.84] Everybody's got to sit down right now

[00:20:51.12] and have this meal together.

[00:20:52.32] Because sometimes that's actually not relaxing to me.

[00:20:54.64] For a lot of moms, meal time is not a relaxing time

[00:20:57.56] them because everybody needs something or the kids are spilling stuff or the dogs are there.

[00:21:01.48] So with these really small ways and when you take those like really tiny little baby steps

[00:21:07.24] into centering yourself, you start getting to like stepping stones and then you start getting

[00:21:12.28] to bigger islands and then eventually maybe get to the point where you get your own island

[00:21:18.92] and you leave. Well and for me it's funny I've done this journey what you're talking about

[00:21:26.04] out in my own way with sort of different ways of saying it.

[00:21:29.30] So how I did it Abby and this is just like something perhaps your audience might find

[00:21:34.36] valuable.

[00:21:35.36] So the very first thing I started to do, not necessarily to center myself, but just to bring

[00:21:40.12] myself back into my own life, was to use the phrase, that is not my preference.

[00:21:47.72] And that is not my preference.

[00:21:49.28] Well, look.

[00:21:50.52] And it was this notion of my preference, fucking matters.

[00:21:54.48] This is my life, what I prefer matters.

[00:21:58.56] And when I said it, it was like, had the power of a mantra.

[00:22:02.52] And something about that sentence, that is not my preference.

[00:22:06.92] We'll make the world around you shift.

[00:22:09.64] People respond to it because within it is a claim.

[00:22:12.72] And my preference matters.

[00:22:15.28] It matters.

[00:22:16.28] And so the world should adjust.

[00:22:17.64] So for me, the way I started putting myself back in was that is not my preference.

[00:22:22.40] And like one thing I love what you brought up

[00:22:24.64] is the conditioning of like men and women.

[00:22:27.04] And my husband Drew is very thoughtful

[00:22:29.68] about these kind of things.

[00:22:30.64] And I was talking about women, you know,

[00:22:32.96] always spend themselves lapsed.

[00:22:34.40] They don't take their time to work out.

[00:22:36.28] They're blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:37.40] And law moms are like,

[00:22:38.40] we are the queens of this.

[00:22:39.76] Well, your moms, they love the mom.

[00:22:41.80] Well, your mom, martyr card.

[00:22:43.48] And how they don't have any time,

[00:22:44.52] they're so stressed out.

[00:22:45.36] Like they love to wave that card around.

[00:22:48.44] And I was explaining this to Drew.

[00:22:50.44] Like how did guys do with that?

[00:22:52.36] you know, feeling. He's like, they don't feel that way. Like they don't feel that way.

[00:22:57.00] Get his like Michelle Obama talks about, you know, looking at Barack and how well he got his

[00:23:02.60] workout in, right? And that's Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. Come on. So that piece of the guy

[00:23:10.20] is going to get his and I'm not saying we necessarily have to go all the way over there. But what

[00:23:14.76] if we even began with borrowing 10% of I'm going to get mine because it's like I think also inherent

[00:23:21.72] in this whole thing is our collective allergy to a woman's desire and longing and wanting.

[00:23:30.56] Like, you hear, I mean, if you ever hear a woman talking about what she wants, what

[00:23:35.72] she desires, what she's going to get, something in society responds to that.

[00:23:42.40] Like, who the fuck does she think she is?

[00:23:45.32] Well, where are your kids going to be?

[00:23:47.12] you are slash, you're a slutty whore,

[00:23:51.64] or you know, on the other, like all of those things

[00:23:54.36] because being a woman fully in touch

[00:23:56.48] with what she wants and what she's gonna get

[00:23:58.68] the way that men are, I think largely in just

[00:24:02.60] our collective experience is alarming,

[00:24:08.12] like a woman's desire and claim for herself

[00:24:12.16] is an alarm bill to the powers that be, I think.

[00:24:15.32] Yes. And allowing, and so I think we developed this perverse

[00:24:22.12] fucked up relationship with the longing and the want.

[00:24:25.20] So like, if I'm not worthy and I'm not supposed to want

[00:24:28.80] anything, if I'm not an ungrateful bitch,

[00:24:32.12] then what I should do is just be happy my kids are healthy,

[00:24:35.20] be happy.

[00:24:36.04] And I've got a husband who's got a good job

[00:24:37.28] and doesn't hit me or nothing.

[00:24:38.52] And settle into the way life is supposed to go.

[00:24:42.24] And I think it's a lie that a lot of us

[00:24:45.00] eat up, hook line and sinker.

[00:24:47.16] And also, I'm not willing to let us all off the hook

[00:24:50.12] because there's people like Abby on the internet

[00:24:51.64] in the world now.

[00:24:52.68] We've got, we live at the same time as Oprah

[00:24:54.72] and chat, GPT, like all of that also to us women is like,

[00:24:58.56] look, it's at this point.

[00:25:01.48] If you don't know it's one thing, but once you know,

[00:25:03.76] then it's kind of on you, Sis, if you continue

[00:25:06.32] to perpetuate the stereotype and like that existence

[00:25:11.32] for you and for your kids.

[00:25:12.64] Because people will be like, you say stuff like this,

[00:25:14.44] and I've even, Abby, like I did a talk recently

[00:25:16.48] to some lawyer moms, and I was saying about this gal,

[00:25:18.04] Abby online, and she talks about centering yourself

[00:25:21.04] and putting yourself at the center of your life,

[00:25:22.64] because have you heard you are your own main character?

[00:25:25.28] And you can feel the honey clench in everybody,

[00:25:28.28] as even I'm saying it, and he's like educated

[00:25:30.56] and lightened, smart, capable women.

[00:25:33.68] And it's like, y'all, if we continue not to put,

[00:25:36.00] and we put everybody else first,

[00:25:38.08] and then our kids see that model,

[00:25:40.00] And then they grow up and learn to put everybody else first.

[00:25:43.16] And so on.

[00:25:44.00] So forever, when does anybody ever get to enjoy

[00:25:46.84] their own right now life?

[00:25:49.76] When does the cycle in?

[00:25:51.92] And like, would you want to raise your kids in such a way

[00:25:54.68] that they only live their life so that everyone else is happy?

[00:25:59.92] Is that what you're trying to model?

[00:26:01.16] Because I think that's what a lot of us do.

[00:26:03.08] Yeah, it is.

[00:26:04.40] And what does it say that like at the mere mention

[00:26:08.12] of women centering themselves, does that cause such discomfort in women themselves and

[00:26:13.74] in other people?

[00:26:15.38] When I talk about centering yourself, choosing yourself, doing stuff for yourself, or acting

[00:26:21.86] like your husband, the way that men come to try to eat me alive because I'm simply holding

[00:26:29.98] up a mirror.

[00:26:31.38] Like I realized there was a time and I all admit it, I do it to myself sometimes too.

[00:26:35.18] I play the card of like, oh, I can't do that.

[00:26:37.58] I don't have time.

[00:26:38.42] What about the kids?

[00:26:39.42] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:40.98] And there was one day like my husband likes

[00:26:43.66] to watch Sunday football, like the Chiefs,

[00:26:46.30] he religiously watches the game.

[00:26:49.26] And it's not like he won't do anything else.

[00:26:51.70] Like he's not completely ignoring the kids by any mean,

[00:26:54.14] but he's gonna sit his ass down in that couch.

[00:26:55.66] And he's gonna watch that game and it's fucking entirety.

[00:26:58.26] And it's so long it would bother me.

[00:27:00.22] And I couldn't really figure out why.

[00:27:01.66] And I was like, oh, it's because I feel like I can't do that.

[00:27:04.82] I feel like I can't take four hours to just myself

[00:27:08.92] to enjoy something for me and see your own house,

[00:27:11.94] even my kids or house.

[00:27:13.54] And it's not that he's ever made me feel that way,

[00:27:16.54] but, societally, that's how women are made to feel.

[00:27:19.70] And so I was like, you know what, fuck this.

[00:27:22.50] I'm gonna go and I took a hot bath,

[00:27:24.10] during that football game, I was like, I don't care.

[00:27:26.58] I'm gonna go and I'm gonna take a hot bath

[00:27:27.94] and I kept telling my kids like, leave me alone,

[00:27:29.62] leave me alone, go ask your dad,

[00:27:31.30] go ask your dad, go ask your dad, go ask your dad,

[00:27:32.42] and that was fine.

[00:27:33.26] I didn't have to leave the house at that point in time.

[00:27:35.50] But I was like, I can act like my husband

[00:27:38.10] and shit will be okay.

[00:27:39.66] And when I said this, when I said that I went

[00:27:41.42] and I took a bath and then I watched the documentary,

[00:27:43.74] they were like, the women were like,

[00:27:45.34] you did this at the same time

[00:27:46.38] that your husband watched the game.

[00:27:47.38] And I was like, yes, and they were like,

[00:27:48.58] well, what about the kids?

[00:27:49.42] And I was like, what about them?

[00:27:51.30] Like, they're fine.

[00:27:53.66] They're okay.

[00:27:54.74] They do not need my constant 100% undivided attention.

[00:27:58.18] I am not a fucking cruise ship director.

[00:28:01.46] I'm not the fun director.

[00:28:03.06] They can figure it out.

[00:28:04.46] I don't have babies.

[00:28:05.50] I have an eight and a 10 year old,

[00:28:07.38] but like Bill managed, they'll be okay.

[00:28:10.38] But like we have to get out of our own way sometimes

[00:28:14.78] and be uncomfortable and feel like,

[00:28:18.70] and question like your feelings.

[00:28:20.66] Like why do I feel guilty?

[00:28:22.14] Like does my husband feel guilty?

[00:28:24.26] If he goes and does these things?

[00:28:25.46] If he goes hunting, if he goes golfing,

[00:28:27.26] if he goes marathon training, whatever the fuck it is,

[00:28:29.94] no, he doesn't.

[00:28:31.58] He's gonna do it and just like with the workout.

[00:28:35.02] I do that too.

[00:28:35.86] I'm like, oh, well, if I can't work out in the morning,

[00:28:37.78] then I can't work out that day because

[00:28:38.98] and I gotta get home and the kids,

[00:28:40.06] and I was like, no, if I wanna work out,

[00:28:41.78] I'm gonna go and I'm gonna work out

[00:28:43.18] and everybody else will fucking deal with it.

[00:28:45.18] For me, it was about sleep.

[00:28:47.10] I started saying when my kids were smaller,

[00:28:48.70] probably about your kids age, my big ones.

[00:28:50.86] And I would just say, mom sleep matters too.

[00:28:54.14] Like when everybody who want me

[00:28:55.50] and a million things later not in this school project,

[00:28:57.26] now I was like, look, mom sleep matters too.

[00:29:00.38] And I'm just sort of claiming that and saying that.

[00:29:02.86] And I don't know for me, yes, it's the husband component.

[00:29:06.30] And this one's a little bit more subtle.

[00:29:09.38] And I don't know if your kids are there yet,

[00:29:10.90] probably so at that age.

[00:29:11.90] But it also comes from the kids, who mom?

[00:29:14.74] How come you can't, blah, blah, blah,

[00:29:16.98] like such and such and such and such moms?

[00:29:19.02] How come, you don't pick me up from school every day?

[00:29:21.18] Whatever the things are.

[00:29:22.50] And so it's me, our job as women,

[00:29:26.22] is to get so okay with you.

[00:29:29.86] and so in touch with what you deserve, what you need,

[00:29:34.86] that whatever anybody has to say to you,

[00:29:37.66] you're sort of like, I'm good with me.

[00:29:39.70] And I'm doing it this way.

[00:29:41.26] I mean, it's been a long journey.

[00:29:42.86] It was not like I came to that overnight, believe me.

[00:29:46.18] Where, yeah, I mean, I don't pick you up from school.

[00:29:48.66] You know what I hate?

[00:29:49.50] Picking up kids from school.

[00:29:50.74] I hate it.

[00:29:51.58] I hate the school, I hate waiting.

[00:29:53.02] I hate afterwards and everybody has to get all buckled in again

[00:29:55.26] and then I wanna snack and everybody's complain.

[00:29:57.02] Like all these women I know are like fighting

[00:29:59.18] to get their kids from school.

[00:30:00.00] I'm like disgusting, no, I hate it.

[00:30:02.28] I will always pay somebody to do it

[00:30:03.68] because it's the worst to me.

[00:30:05.72] And I'm okay to say that.

[00:30:06.76] And I'm a really great mom who shows up

[00:30:09.08] in other ways for my kids that don't involve that.

[00:30:11.56] So, you know, one question Abby too,

[00:30:15.04] you and I, it sounds like we're both married

[00:30:16.76] to really nice good guys who align

[00:30:18.48] with our philosophy on this.

[00:30:20.24] What do you tell the women of the worst land here

[00:30:23.24] who are in marriages where them taking some

[00:30:27.40] of these actions to center themselves?

[00:30:29.48] Even the smallest thing, like making a dinner she likes,

[00:30:32.44] that no one else likes.

[00:30:34.56] What do you tell them about how the reaction that may come

[00:30:39.08] and then what to do with that?

[00:30:41.64] I think that's hard because it depends on the reaction.

[00:30:44.04] Like if it's, if it's your normal run-of-the-mill

[00:30:50.48] guilt trip that husbands are placing on them

[00:30:54.32] or this expectation of like, well, I don't like this.

[00:30:57.64] what am I supposed to eat, you know, to all the way from like,

[00:31:01.24] the other end of this spectrum of, you know,

[00:31:02.96] things get fizzed like, you know that like one small thing

[00:31:05.64] really shouldn't set somebody off,

[00:31:07.20] but it can lead down into a really dark place.

[00:31:10.20] You've got to only you know what that's going to look like,

[00:31:13.84] but for the most part, let's say most people

[00:31:16.28] are not in abusive situations,

[00:31:18.20] and it's just you're run of the mill, guilt trip,

[00:31:20.24] make you feel like a bad mom,

[00:31:21.64] what am I supposed to eat?

[00:31:22.80] What was me type of bullshit?

[00:31:24.44] You just have to learn to get comfortable

[00:31:27.36] with pissing people off.

[00:31:29.56] You're spouse specifically.

[00:31:31.20] Like it's okay.

[00:31:32.96] Like it will be okay.

[00:31:35.40] You can.

[00:31:36.24] And I go to their worth.

[00:31:37.76] Because I think we're so programmed

[00:31:39.56] to never have anybody mad at us.

[00:31:41.44] And I can just say that.

[00:31:42.28] And make little prisons of like what I was thinking is

[00:31:45.76] what I would tell her if it was me.

[00:31:47.32] I'd say sister, hold the line.

[00:31:50.56] Yeah, hold the line.

[00:31:51.80] Because you know what?

[00:31:52.64] Men respect.

[00:31:53.68] Someone who holds the line.

[00:31:54.96] And a boundary.

[00:31:56.04] And so it's like, okay, but what they don't respect is they pull one of these manipulate

[00:32:01.24] turn things inside out tricks and it works.

[00:32:04.64] And then simultaneously do not get what you want and he has information on a way to manipulate

[00:32:09.16] you and he respects you even a little bit less because you weren't fierce in holding the

[00:32:15.12] line.

[00:32:16.12] And it's hard.

[00:32:17.12] It may mean there's some icicles in your house for three or four days, but like to fucking

[00:32:21.24] bad, this is really crass too.

[00:32:22.76] He's eventually gonna wanna get laid, believe me,

[00:32:24.36] he'll loosen up eventually.

[00:32:27.04] Like I just don't care.

[00:32:29.56] Like if you don't wanna eat what I make

[00:32:32.48] and you're hungry, you'll figure it out, buddy.

[00:32:35.52] Just like my kids will figure it out too.

[00:32:37.72] They can slop together a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

[00:32:40.60] They'll make it.

[00:32:41.36] Like you can find something to do.

[00:32:43.40] You just have to get comfortable with this idea

[00:32:45.92] that you are not here to please everybody else.

[00:32:48.76] Like you said, this is your life.

[00:32:50.36] You have a preference.

[00:32:51.54] You get to have these preferences,

[00:32:53.58] but you also have to learn to sit

[00:32:55.68] with the uncomfortable feelings.

[00:32:57.92] Process the uncomfortable feelings

[00:33:00.00] and work through them to the point where you,

[00:33:02.42] that shit just rolls off your back eventually.

[00:33:04.76] Do you feel like the women who've been following you for a while

[00:33:07.66] and engage and watch your stuff?

[00:33:10.78] How, how do they do with implementing it in their daily life?

[00:33:17.54] Like do you get a lot of feedback of,

[00:33:19.44] I tried and it really wasn't so bad or I did try and it was kind of a show and it made me

[00:33:23.36] realize I do actually need to get divorced.

[00:33:25.64] He's never going to change any such an asshole.

[00:33:27.64] Like how does it seem to go when people start to put into practice some of these suggestions

[00:33:34.32] that you have?

[00:33:36.08] They really realize how like how little they lived for themselves, how little space they

[00:33:44.64] they took up and how, and in those those the smallest ways are like, I didn't realize

[00:33:50.76] that like just hearing this from somebody gave me this permission that I didn't know

[00:33:55.42] I needed.

[00:33:57.40] That's most of it.

[00:33:58.40] Whenever I talk to women, they already know this, but it's like somebody has to give them

[00:34:03.20] permission to do it.

[00:34:05.04] Somebody has to verbally say to them, it's okay for you to take up space.

[00:34:10.52] It's okay for you to have preferences.

[00:34:13.08] It's okay for you to have hobbies.

[00:34:14.78] It's okay for you to find fulfillment outside of being a mom.

[00:34:18.96] It's okay for you to seek outside fulfillment of your marriage.

[00:34:22.00] And I don't mean like in another relationship, but like things that fulfill you outside

[00:34:26.32] of that.

[00:34:27.32] Like it's okay.

[00:34:28.32] You have permission to do that.

[00:34:30.84] And it's like this light bulb goes off.

[00:34:33.28] And they're like, oh my God.

[00:34:36.48] You're right.

[00:34:37.48] Like I can do that.

[00:34:39.32] I can say no.

[00:34:40.52] I can do what I wanna do and everybody else will deal with it when the tips fall where

[00:34:45.58] they may.

[00:34:46.78] So much of it is just this like aha light bulb and then it's like, oh, I did this and now

[00:34:52.08] I can do that.

[00:34:53.08] I can go to bed when I wanna go to bed.

[00:34:54.74] I can have my own space in my house where it's just mine.

[00:34:57.58] I can sleep in the guest room where I actually get some fucking sleep for once.

[00:35:03.10] It's the one little thing that leads to another that just snowballs and the more you do it,

[00:35:06.68] the bigger your-

[00:35:07.84] Your-

[00:35:08.84] Okay.

[00:35:09.84] centering gets and the things that you do start getting bigger and you take up more space.

[00:35:13.68] Well, for me, one thing I was saying about your saying it's okay for this is okay for

[00:35:16.88] that.

[00:35:17.88] Screaming from my heart was and the world needs it from you.

[00:35:22.24] Like my sort of theory in life is our job is to become the like USU there is.

[00:35:27.88] Abby's job is to become the most Abby Abby that there is.

[00:35:30.36] My job is the most Hannah Hannah there is.

[00:35:32.88] And for me, what I'm thinking about is we spend so much of our lives never listening to what

[00:35:38.18] we want, at least I can speak for myself,

[00:35:40.42] stuffing down our own preferences, our needs,

[00:35:42.98] our wants, our desires, our longings, our hopes,

[00:35:44.98] our dreams in service of everybody else.

[00:35:47.54] And so then it's like we have to, I mean,

[00:35:51.14] the call is to unlearn and to shed and get rid of all of that.

[00:35:55.26] And to come fully alive so we can exercise our own potential,

[00:35:58.54] become who we need to be.

[00:35:59.98] Spread light of awareness through our children

[00:36:02.86] of nothing else so they don't get in shit situations.

[00:36:05.90] And to everybody else, but it's like,

[00:36:07.38] to me it's more than okay and it's your responsibility.

[00:36:11.98] Like sister, we need this from you.

[00:36:14.46] And there's this element of like, hey, now that you've heard this,

[00:36:18.38] if you do something, like you're being a cop out,

[00:36:21.22] like you're copying out, you're avoiding the truth.

[00:36:24.82] And like that's okay.

[00:36:25.98] Sometimes we're in situations where we just have to eat shit

[00:36:28.78] for a while.

[00:36:29.38] I mean, sometimes we're in those.

[00:36:31.18] And, you know, they have to make that assessment for themselves.

[00:36:35.18] I know you talk about that where people are in these crappy situations and people will

[00:36:42.64] say to these women, hey, then just leave them then.

[00:36:46.24] It's sort of like these people like, if you don't enjoy your kids all the time, then

[00:36:48.88] why do you even have any kids?

[00:36:50.80] Have you ever been to Chuck E. Cheese?

[00:36:53.08] It's really hard to read on a Saturday afternoon.

[00:36:56.28] You don't know what you're talking about.

[00:36:58.88] But where they're in these situations where you're like, okay, if he's so bad, why don't

[00:37:03.48] you just leave and I've seen your stuff where you talk about like that's one of the most

[00:37:07.84] unfair kind of unkind things we could say.

[00:37:10.76] So could you tell us a little bit for those women who are in a situation like maybe they

[00:37:14.76] tried to make their own dinner.

[00:37:16.36] He flew off the handle.

[00:37:17.52] He was mean to the kid, you know, the cost wasn't worth it to her.

[00:37:21.32] And you know, people her friends are telling, we'll just leave his ass just you gotta leave

[00:37:25.24] him, but she's not.

[00:37:26.24] What would you tell her?

[00:37:28.36] moms and as women, we push through the shit of whatever it is that we have to do for

[00:37:38.04] whatever amount of time.

[00:37:41.20] Most of the women I talked to, I think, could probably leave if they wanted to if they

[00:37:48.04] weren't so afraid, which is a valid fear.

[00:37:53.08] But I think so often it's just, it seems so unfair to me to get angry at women and blame

[00:38:03.32] them when systemically and societally we are, it is not set up to benefit women.

[00:38:13.38] It's not set up to benefit single woman.

[00:38:15.10] It's not set up to benefit married woman.

[00:38:16.78] It's not set up to benefit single mothers or divorced mothers or women just period and

[00:38:22.56] in general. And so to sit here and tell women to just leave and not look at the other

[00:38:28.92] nuances of what that means for them. That might mean losing their health insurance for

[00:38:34.36] their high needs child or it might be like, I don't have a job. I've been out of the

[00:38:41.04] job market because I left the workforce to be a state home mom. And have you seen the

[00:38:46.16] job market? Like it's bleak out there type of thing. So it's a very privileged place

[00:38:51.16] that we tell women to just leave.

[00:38:54.52] But a lot of times my very first thing

[00:38:58.24] is have you spoken to a divorce lawyer?

[00:39:02.16] Do you know your options?

[00:39:04.00] Do you know what this could potentially look like

[00:39:06.88] so that at the very least they can have an idea?

[00:39:10.52] And this, for whatever reason, when I tell women this,

[00:39:12.84] it very much like I can see the anxiety,

[00:39:16.04] like I can see their chest tightening.

[00:39:17.96] And once I talk to the divorce lawyer,

[00:39:20.04] That means they're getting divorced.

[00:39:21.44] Like there's something, like if I make that call,

[00:39:23.92] it's like a point of no return.

[00:39:25.76] It is open.

[00:39:26.60] I'm sending those divorce papers now for him

[00:39:29.20] and I'm like, listen to me.

[00:39:30.96] This is a recon.

[00:39:32.00] You are on a fact finding mission and that is all.

[00:39:35.52] You are knowing what has to be the ducks

[00:39:38.40] that you need to get in a row

[00:39:40.12] so that if you choose to go down this path,

[00:39:42.72] you have all of the information possible.

[00:39:44.92] This is a baby step in the grand scheme of your life.

[00:39:49.88] We are not serving divorce papers.

[00:39:51.48] Now you are not signing a retainer right now.

[00:39:54.16] You are simply understanding what your rights are,

[00:39:57.40] what is available to you, what the whole process.

[00:40:00.00] could look like so that you have and can make the most informed decision as humanly possible.

[00:40:06.60] Oh, yeah.

[00:40:07.60] That makes sense.

[00:40:09.64] Like they're like, okay, yeah, you're right.

[00:40:12.84] And I'm like, just do it.

[00:40:13.84] Just schedule it.

[00:40:14.84] Then call it like send me an email.

[00:40:16.32] Like I don't even care.

[00:40:17.44] Let me know how it went.

[00:40:18.96] What did you find out?

[00:40:19.96] How are you feeling?

[00:40:20.96] Because more often than not, the like that was really informative.

[00:40:24.36] And now at least I know, it might take me another six months to two years to get all

[00:40:29.16] my shit together. But at least no I know and I know what this could look like.

[00:40:33.24] Well, an information is power, right? And so in that exact space, I would talk with women all

[00:40:39.96] the time who, now by the time they get to me as a divorce lawyer, they may have like waited way too

[00:40:45.40] late, made such a mess of things. And then there's some acute situation where they have to do it,

[00:40:49.40] or they've been served God forbid. And so there isn't that time. But that's why, so I made this

[00:40:54.60] prep course for women called my confident divorce, helping them prepare for divorce,

[00:40:58.84] with that losing their kids money and sanity. And it's just having those, there's four things

[00:41:03.32] we go through. And having those thoughts in a low pressure, it doesn't even cost you money.

[00:41:09.96] It's free. Environment from Zoom, from your house. So you can just think through, okay, like,

[00:41:15.08] what shit do I need to have together? What is my parenting actually look like? Like,

[00:41:20.36] how would my evidence show up in court and trying to get, and that's definitely the advice I'd

[00:41:24.52] give to your audience for sure is look, if you and your heart of hearts and as women we know.

[00:41:30.68] Like you already know if you're listening to this, whether you're going to stay or go in this

[00:41:34.36] marriage. And you may be delaying it, you know, avoidance always sends an invoice. So, you know,

[00:41:41.16] be careful of that. But if you know, I would absolutely echo what Abby's saying is, you know,

[00:41:50.04] You can do the course. You can join our circle for women. It's free online that the circle for women going through divorce and Dylan

[00:41:56.60] custody drama. Do the course mine or I'm sure there's other people who's made stuff like that on the computer.

[00:42:02.92] Doing that and what I tell them throughout is like look and you're ready to go and you can go to a divorce letter.

[00:42:08.28] The lawyer most of them will take cash so you don't leave a trail. Even if you have to like borrow, you know, $100

[00:42:15.72] five times from your mom or whoever to do it so that you can go up there and have the conversation,

[00:42:21.16] leave your phone and your friends if he's tracking you, go in, pay the money, and at least

[00:42:26.28] understand. And then you have the information. But I think times people stay in that invisible

[00:42:31.40] prison with the key in their pocket because like, well, I don't know. And you know, especially

[00:42:35.72] I feel such a heart for the women who've been staying at home parents. And what they're supposed

[00:42:41.72] to do, how are they even supposed to get the $500?

[00:42:44.08] If there was a retainer, they'd have to ask him

[00:42:46.20] for the credit card.

[00:42:47.04] So it's like, have you seen that judge Judy Klipp

[00:42:50.68] where she talks about how women should never give up

[00:42:53.92] like their ability to make a living

[00:42:55.80] and that financial independence, right?

[00:42:57.16] So next time around, we're never gonna get completely

[00:43:00.28] on an island where we're cut off from access

[00:43:02.76] to any of our own money.

[00:43:04.56] But if that's your situation now,

[00:43:07.00] I think doing that prep work

[00:43:09.92] And it helps calm down your lizard brain and the anxiety.

[00:43:14.96] And there's this thing I learned in managing my team

[00:43:18.36] and being a leader of a business a while back.

[00:43:21.28] And it's a concept of a decision has been made.

[00:43:24.04] And it's sort of like this claim.

[00:43:25.60] It's just line in the sand.

[00:43:26.72] Like say some employees, it's not working out

[00:43:29.04] and you know in your heart, it's not gonna work long term.

[00:43:31.80] But you also can't cut your nose despite face

[00:43:34.96] and immediately fire them because whatever reason.

[00:43:37.80] So then you know, okay, a decision has been made.

[00:43:40.96] And that person, although they haven't left yet,

[00:43:44.84] I know it's not gonna work out

[00:43:46.24] and I'm gonna start planning until that time.

[00:43:48.68] So for these women who don't feel like divorce

[00:43:52.12] is an option to them right now.

[00:43:53.76] I would also tell them, look,

[00:43:54.80] you can also in your own mind be like,

[00:43:56.96] a decision's been made, okay.

[00:43:59.68] Gathering the information, it doesn't mean you have to do it

[00:44:02.12] right now.

[00:44:03.60] You can start to do, and I would advise you,

[00:44:06.20] subtle things along the way to get prepared for you to walk into a completely different life.

[00:44:12.76] But the way you talk about it, Abby, I felt convicted at first. Like when I first saw that about

[00:44:17.96] people telling them just leave and I had to like really think through my own heart, like as that

[00:44:21.80] always my advice to be like just leave. And ultimately no, I would never tell a woman just leave

[00:44:27.64] without a plan. Like and this happens. People come to my office like after the fall for divorce

[00:44:32.20] Today, I need you to file it by five o'clock tomorrow.

[00:44:35.00] Bra-ra-ra-ra.

[00:44:36.12] And they don't, like, okay,

[00:44:37.68] sis, all the credit cards are in his name

[00:44:39.80] and you're just a cardholder.

[00:44:41.08] So when he cuts off your credit cards,

[00:44:43.44] how are you gonna put your gas in your car?

[00:44:45.48] How are you gonna buy groceries?

[00:44:46.60] Like, what are you gonna do?

[00:44:48.04] And helping them think through that.

[00:44:49.96] So that nuance for people.

[00:44:52.24] But I think if they can access this idea

[00:44:54.92] of you can make the decision and not immediately leave,

[00:44:59.60] perhaps that can relieve some of their anxiety.

[00:45:02.16] around living that out.

[00:45:04.68] Yeah, and that information,

[00:45:05.96] because a lot of times we're,

[00:45:08.04] we're catastrophizing it, right?

[00:45:09.64] We're going, well, my life will never be the same.

[00:45:12.44] I'm gonna be broke.

[00:45:13.20] I'm gonna be poor.

[00:45:14.04] How am I gonna for my kids?

[00:45:15.00] How am I gonna, not in five years.

[00:45:18.12] We're talking right now.

[00:45:19.08] Within the next two months,

[00:45:20.56] what's something that you can do?

[00:45:22.12] You can gather this information.

[00:45:23.92] And then with that information,

[00:45:25.16] what you know, two months later, what can you do?

[00:45:28.72] take those small check marks off of your list instead of looking like

[00:45:33.72] in your entire lifetime span,

[00:45:36.52] we're talking like month to month, day to day even,

[00:45:40.48] versus this whole catastrophe that we start spinning

[00:45:44.96] and spiraling out on.

[00:45:47.08] When I think to for the women in this situation,

[00:45:51.84] it's like,

[00:45:55.24] what I also wish they could do,

[00:45:56.60] there's the prep for the divorce

[00:45:58.04] that sort of assumes you know this outcome,

[00:46:00.20] that this marriage is not for you, et cetera.

[00:46:04.04] The advice I had to give my younger self,

[00:46:05.76] and that would even give myself

[00:46:06.68] within the context of my own current forever marriage,

[00:46:10.24] is my intention.

[00:46:12.32] Would be, are you willing to also look at your own shit

[00:46:17.56] a little bit here?

[00:46:18.40] I mean, like, yeah, yeah, they got a lot of shit.

[00:46:22.08] Us women, you know, we probably bring a lot of shit.

[00:46:25.12] We're probably living out our dad issues

[00:46:27.04] on top of him too.

[00:46:29.52] And there's that piece.

[00:46:31.28] So what I would tell myself and the women back

[00:46:33.60] in that spot too is in this version of centering yourself.

[00:46:39.40] Can you also, would you have the strength

[00:46:42.20] in the courage to look in and just sort of

[00:46:44.44] your own self-reflection and your own self-assessment?

[00:46:47.68] Could you begin to heal some of those wounds

[00:46:50.32] that you keep in these patterns?

[00:46:51.60] You keep living day and day and year and year?

[00:46:54.60] Could you do that with the help of a therapist

[00:46:56.48] while you're sending yourself with the help of friends,

[00:46:59.28] you know, even the people online and stuff like that.

[00:47:01.92] Could you begin to do that work on you

[00:47:04.52] so that if as and when it turns out

[00:47:06.88] this marriage is not for you,

[00:47:08.52] that you don't bring forward all your same shit.

[00:47:11.40] Now I'm not trying to say like,

[00:47:13.84] you know, that, that if you change,

[00:47:16.80] like you're doing that even necessarily

[00:47:18.16] to keep that marriage, although,

[00:47:20.96] if you do that work, you may find that perhaps

[00:47:25.00] there were just some things we needed to do

[00:47:26.84] as we grow up, because a lot of us get married young.

[00:47:29.40] You know, even when I got remarried in my early 30s,

[00:47:33.52] I had a lot of growing up too.

[00:47:35.28] I brought all my same shit and did it fortunately

[00:47:40.00] within the context of my marriage and learned a lot

[00:47:42.96] and went through a lot and did the work on myself.

[00:47:44.92] So it's like in recentering yourself,

[00:47:47.72] I think, yes, making that dinner and doing those things,

[00:47:51.12] can you also prioritize?

[00:47:52.72] And I think you talk about this Abby,

[00:47:55.24] prioritize your own growth.

[00:47:57.28] Your own.

[00:47:58.12] Where you wanna get to,

[00:48:00.24] can you also do that piece

[00:48:03.72] in addition to the,

[00:48:05.56] let's have, you know, some more hobbies?

[00:48:08.36] I don't think you go into that,

[00:48:09.44] but do you counsel people to do that piece?

[00:48:12.96] And like, if so, do you ever see

[00:48:16.44] changes with like,

[00:48:17.12] oh, actually maybe I don't need to leave?

[00:48:19.08] Like we've worked in through it.

[00:48:21.20] I don't think I've ever had somebody go actually.

[00:48:25.12] It's not so bad.

[00:48:26.12] Oh really.

[00:48:27.12] Because I think the thing, at least I will say with most of the women that I talk to

[00:48:33.12] and that I work with is that women are already the first ones to get help.

[00:48:37.20] Women are already the first ones who are going to therapy solo for themselves.

[00:48:41.88] They're also the ones trying to find couples counseling and couples therapy.

[00:48:45.36] They're trying to find therapy solo for their husbands.

[00:48:48.52] We know that women are the first ones to try to fix themselves.

[00:48:53.96] Statistically we make up the largest part of the self-help market.

[00:48:57.12] So women tend to do that a lot because we're always told, like, well, if you have a problem,

[00:49:01.72] then you need to fix it.

[00:49:02.80] And so then we think, well, I must be the problem because I'm the only one bringing up

[00:49:05.96] issues in my marriage.

[00:49:07.36] So I should fix that.

[00:49:08.60] So we go and we go to therapy and we listen to podcasts and we consume the content and

[00:49:12.24] we join the groups and we try all these different things.

[00:49:16.08] And that might not be dissecting and getting to the heart of a lot of the issues, but a lot

[00:49:23.44] of the women that I work with and that I talk to are already helping themselves in that

[00:49:29.84] regard.

[00:49:30.84] They're already understanding the patterns.

[00:49:33.04] I think more somewhere than anything, it would be healing from their current situation.

[00:49:39.88] Because they're more so like surviving it and using tools and mechanisms to put into place

[00:49:45.36] to continue to survive it versus eventually healing from it when they can leave.

[00:49:51.92] Which is something I don't think that they might be anticipating or ready for, but that

[00:49:57.40] they should absolutely be planning on doing.

[00:50:00.00] Yeah, you know, one question for you, Abby, that I was thinking like how so say that woman who's listening to us is like, you know, tuned in for whatever reason. She saw clip online and thought, oh, those two gals are cute. I'm a Muslim in them.

[00:50:14.16] How does she know that she's in a marriage that's just surviving like how does she identify.

[00:50:21.12] Are there any markers that would let her know that we're talking to her?

[00:50:26.72] Like that she's not in the right situation or that she needs to do this work.

[00:50:32.76] Like how would she know you're talking to her?

[00:50:35.04] I think a lot of it would be around unresolved issues.

[00:50:41.76] You're having the same conversations or you're having the same arguments or you are consistently

[00:50:48.72] invalidated, you're walking on eggshells, you're exhausted, you know that you can't bring something up because

[00:50:54.56] you know exactly how it's going to go. Even though it's really bothering you and it's probably starting to eat

[00:50:59.40] away when you're feeling really resentful. And you're just

[00:51:05.48] tired because you don't think that anything will ever change and you've had the same conversations and

[00:51:10.32] you know, you've tried all the different ways, you've implemented all the different strategies,

[00:51:14.96] you've, you know, waited and tried to talk to him in different ways and, and, and softer tones

[00:51:20.64] and brought things up at better times. And you just know it ain't gonna happen. It's just not there.

[00:51:31.12] There is no movement forward for this anymore. And you are thoroughly exhausted. And I think

[00:51:39.44] Most women, I think, deep, deep, deep down, they know.

[00:51:44.84] They know that this will never resolve itself,

[00:51:47.68] that these issues will forever be there

[00:51:49.48] because they've always been there.

[00:51:52.00] They know because they've had the conversation time and time

[00:51:54.40] and time and time and time and time again,

[00:51:56.44] and it never resolves.

[00:51:58.20] It might be a patch where he resolves to do better,

[00:52:01.28] and there's two weeks where he's trying

[00:52:02.88] and everything's looking up and it's okay.

[00:52:05.12] And then you're right back and you're like,

[00:52:06.52] Wait a second.

[00:52:08.12] What just happened here?

[00:52:10.08] I'm back in the same spot again.

[00:52:11.68] Yeah, one thing I was thinking about too,

[00:52:14.24] what I used to call that whole,

[00:52:16.84] if you have to really strategize

[00:52:18.80] about the way you bring things to your partner,

[00:52:21.72] it might be a clue you should listen up.

[00:52:23.60] So like I used to call them time place manner restrictions

[00:52:27.24] so in a con law when you're analyzing like free speech

[00:52:30.16] in a public forum situation,

[00:52:31.92] there can be time place and manner restrictions.

[00:52:34.32] Like when you can do it

[00:52:35.80] and how you can do it in whatever, in the law.

[00:52:38.48] So I would used to explain, like,

[00:52:40.56] oh, the way that my experts say things,

[00:52:42.52] like, well, you brought it up at the wrong time

[00:52:44.36] or the way that you said et cetera.

[00:52:46.04] So I can't have to have a time place

[00:52:48.52] and manner restriction every time I'm gonna bring something

[00:52:50.68] to you, just sort of dance around the exact right moment

[00:52:53.76] to say how I feel.

[00:52:54.76] So that's like, how to think about it.

[00:52:56.64] If you're strategizing the way to sort of like,

[00:53:00.68] not necessarily manipulate,

[00:53:01.84] but just like to tip toe your way

[00:53:04.04] through the eye of a needle with this person you're married to, it may be a clue that

[00:53:10.64] there's something amiss. And then the other thing to me, the way that I knew that I would

[00:53:16.56] just sort of add on to what you're saying is this, malaise this on we this feeling of I wasn't

[00:53:26.00] looking forward to anything anymore. And I wasn't the things I used to look forward to going

[00:53:31.08] vacation, one day retiring, whatever. I was like, yeah, I mean, if I retire, then that just means

[00:53:38.36] I went this fella. And I wasn't, I didn't enjoy anything anymore. It's like everything kind of

[00:53:46.20] became beige. Everything is working out. Everything is a chore and a job.

[00:53:52.76] Yeah. So those were some ways they might know. Well, Abby, okay, this has been awesome. I could talk

[00:53:57.16] to you for a thousand for ever is about all of this stuff.

[00:53:59.72] But we've got a few questions that we ask every guest just to kind of get your take.

[00:54:04.88] And my first question is what's been shaken you lately?

[00:54:09.56] When Abinai recording this, there's been a lot of hot stuff going on in our country.

[00:54:14.00] So I have a sense of what she might think, but what's been shaken you lately?

[00:54:18.52] I think what's been shaking me lately has been a lot of double standards that we hear

[00:54:27.12] about that I think anytime I share about double standards of men and women and husbands

[00:54:35.04] and followers versus mothers I get a lot of shake up and a lot of angry angry

[00:54:42.24] angry men and somehow as of late there's been a very large uptick in hateful

[00:54:47.84] DMs that I've gotten from men specifically so I will keep it at double

[00:54:54.04] standards that people really hate having the mayor held up to their face for.

[00:54:58.12] For me, what's been shaking me lately is real, I mean, in addition,

[00:55:03.08] everything that's going on, just sort of like current event type stuff.

[00:55:06.60] The question of like in my world, a lot of people always told me like,

[00:55:10.76] you've got to find your why.

[00:55:12.68] Why are you doing this?

[00:55:13.96] Like as this driver for life and there all it feels to me, like all this time,

[00:55:19.24] they'd lecture me about how I need to find what's your why?

[00:55:22.00] And they'd want you to have like there's that Simon Sinek guy talks about finding your why driving from your why and then I'd ask these people in these conferences and things I've go to like, okay, but what if I'm not 100% sure what it is like, how do I figure out what it is and then I would always get these like blank stares back at me.

[00:55:38.00] And they're just like, oh wait, so you're just going to like sort of judge me slash mildly shame me that I need to have it.

[00:55:43.00] it. But then you're not willing to tell me what it is. It was like a diagnosis without

[00:55:47.60] a prescription. I'm not a practice like whatever. So anyway, I've been noodling around

[00:55:52.48] on a talk and doing some thoughts about like how to get to your wife. You don't know.

[00:55:57.08] So I've been thinking about that. Okay. Now the name of the show is not saving it for

[00:56:02.48] later. So whenever you first saw that, was there, did it evoke anything for yours?

[00:56:06.92] Are there anything you say for later? You find yourself doing it or like what came up

[00:56:11.56] for you when you think about not saving it for later.

[00:56:15.00] I think when I think about not saving it for later,

[00:56:17.06] I think of just how society constantly tells women,

[00:56:22.76] essentially, to save it for later.

[00:56:25.08] It's not that big of a deal.

[00:56:26.44] Like, you don't need to bring it up right now.

[00:56:28.48] You don't need to speak about it right now.

[00:56:30.00] You're making this too big of a deal.

[00:56:32.04] So for me, I agree.

[00:56:33.64] Yeah, like when somebody's like,

[00:56:34.96] oh, just save it for later.

[00:56:36.40] They really mean like, shut the fuck up about it right now.

[00:56:39.24] I don't want to hear it.

[00:56:40.40] Never. Never. They don't actually want you to save it for any of any of the time.

[00:56:45.40] They just want you to be quiet right now because you're shaking their comfortability

[00:56:49.64] without things currently are.

[00:56:51.40] Yeah. I know for me, like, I'll find myself the dumbest things ever still, like, even

[00:56:57.28] though I talk about this all the time. But for me this year, all of 2026 for me, it's

[00:57:04.06] joy and not put joy on layaway that I'm going to get to it later. And I was listening

[00:57:09.88] to the Benjamin Hardy book about Be Your Future Self now.

[00:57:16.28] And I was just kind of listening to that and realized that he was giving these three

[00:57:20.64] steps kind of something something like, get your three goals contextual.

[00:57:24.56] Oh, so at your contextual purpose, like what's your purpose right now?

[00:57:28.08] Like what are the top three things?

[00:57:30.92] And number one, I thought, man, this has written such like a man, you know, top three

[00:57:35.28] ways.

[00:57:36.28] very abstract concepts of one, two, three. Anyways, and on those, I listed like two accomplishments

[00:57:41.96] I wanted to do this year. And then the last one, I was like, oh, and because we talked about

[00:57:48.04] it as your priority and where your focus is and your behaviors. And I put on my third one,

[00:57:53.64] experience more joy. And I put it right up there with right my book, right? Like get those things

[00:57:59.72] done and putting that emphasis on it. So for me, the whole year is about like trying to,

[00:58:06.12] you know, I've done all these accomplishments and different things. Sure. And for a lot of that

[00:58:10.52] put the enjoyment of it for later. So try not to do that. Um, okay. Last thing. So if you could

[00:58:16.60] only tell the women of divorce land, um, one thing, give them one sort of piece of parting advice.

[00:58:23.72] What would you tell them? Think and act like your husband.

[00:58:25.80] I love it.

[00:58:32.80] I love it.

[00:58:33.80] It's so interesting and it's hilarious because it seems radical.

[00:58:40.80] And it's not.

[00:58:44.80] And I think, you know, one of, I didn't really consider this before we started talking how woven the worth component is into that.

[00:58:54.80] is into that because when you're willing to quote unquote act like your husband slash say

[00:59:00.72] the things that is not my preference make your own dinner something in you has claimed

[00:59:07.16] that next level of worth expanded your sphere expanded your the space you're willing

[00:59:13.84] to take up and so like my parting thought on all this would be y'all if you're listening

[00:59:18.60] it doesn't have to be like all of a sudden your heinous bitch who doesn't care about

[00:59:21.52] kids in her husband. But do what Abby said, can you take one small step where you are the main

[00:59:29.20] character of your life? Where you honor your own preference and something that you care about.

[00:59:34.48] And just like I talk about, you don't get brave and courageous in a deposit. You don't

[00:59:40.88] center yourself or find your worth with this whole huge deposit. You realize it one little bit

[00:59:47.68] at a time and then you know you have it by looking in your rear view mirror.

[00:59:51.68] And so that's how you know you're courageous because you've done a bunch of scary shit

[00:59:55.28] and didn't die and you keep going.

[00:59:57.92] And find your worth.

[01:00:00.00] even if you're not able to fully join me in Abby,

[01:00:02.44] like you can borrow our faith in you,

[01:00:03.96] that you are worthy because you exist.

[01:00:06.32] And you deserve to have a happy life

[01:00:08.18] because you're a human being.

[01:00:09.48] And I imagine you're a good person and a good woman

[01:00:12.76] and a good mom who's doing the best that she can.

[01:00:15.56] I have to believe that's true if you've made it this far.

[01:00:18.28] And even if you're unwilling to like double down

[01:00:23.12] on a complete like baptismal immersion

[01:00:26.32] in that feeling,

[01:00:28.96] what if you made plants and everybody else had plants?

[01:00:33.08] Just once.

[01:00:34.32] And then when everybody doesn't die.

[01:00:36.28] And the world doesn't end.

[01:00:38.32] And maybe some of y'all will be in a situation

[01:00:40.64] where you might be pleasantly surprised.

[01:00:42.36] Maybe it kind of goes good.

[01:00:44.28] Maybe it's not that hard and difficult.

[01:00:46.56] So I think just a hard takeaway would be

[01:00:50.16] what's one thing you can do today

[01:00:53.40] to center yourself in your own life

[01:00:55.48] because you are the main character of your own movie.

[01:00:58.60] Okay, thank you, Abby.

[01:00:59.72] Thank you so much for doing this.

[01:01:01.64] I was looking forward to this so much.

[01:01:04.76] And you're exactly what you appear online.

[01:01:06.88] I think that's why it's so successful

[01:01:08.48] is because people can feel that.

[01:01:09.64] And thanks for spending the time with us.

[01:01:11.60] Yeah, thank you, Hannah.

[01:01:12.44] I appreciate it.

[01:01:13.84] Abby, people are gonna wanna follow you

[01:01:16.56] and get into your world.

[01:01:18.36] How can they do that?

[01:01:19.48] Like, do you do offers?

[01:01:20.60] Do you have courses, groups?

[01:01:22.56] How can people know more about you

[01:01:24.64] and the work that you offer?

[01:01:26.44] Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at abeecol.

[01:01:30.04] Facebook, I'm the abeecol.

[01:01:31.72] And then abeecol.com.

[01:01:33.84] Okay, that's all of us.

[01:01:35.80] All right, y'all follow her.

[01:01:36.88] It is truly my favorite follow right now.

[01:01:39.56] I'm not just saying that because you're on here.

[01:01:41.44] But you know how people you interact with,

[01:01:43.48] like top fans or whatever is like

[01:01:44.88] your abeecol's top fan.

[01:01:45.96] I'm like, yes, I'm not my fucking mom.

[01:01:48.08] I'm my dad.

[01:01:48.92] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:49.92] Okay, all right, thanks, Abbie.

[01:01:51.72] Thank you.