DR ALVAREZ_REV.txt

English (US)

01:00:00.000 — 01:02:29.830 · Speaker 1

It's hard to imagine or find empathy. People who would behave that way to the point that they're willing to do whatever to your children to get to you. I mean, the children are just weapons in these very high conflict families. The children are weapons. It's never about the children, despite what their pleadings are.

And you know what? They testify in court or the deposition. It's not about the kids. The kids are weapons to seek revenge. Let's be honest. Most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown. Later when the timing is right. Later when you finally stop caring what they think.

Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Hembree Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage. This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. Hey everybody, I am so excited to be together today. We have a very special guest, Doctor Mary Alvarez.

Um, doctor Alvarez is a psychologist. We are together live in Austin, which is so much fun and I know her through my work and my day job as a divorce lawyer. I'm working on cases and things like that together. And y'all, we are in for a treat. Because Doctor Alvarez is one smart cookie who, you know, one of the things, Doctor Alvarez, I was thinking of how to explain to you is like, um, who can connect the dots herself?

And I think that's important for us to think about in this whole conversation and what the job of people who do the kind of thing that you do, job is right, is to connect those dots. Um, so I was thinking like, she's kind of like a professional, um, dot connector in a high conflict divorce and custody kind of dramas.

Is that is that fair? Is there? What did I miss? I know there's so there's so many letters behind your name and all the cool stuff you've done, but that's how I think of it. That's a great way to say it. I use that terminology too. I like to connect dots for my clients, for the court, for judges who aren't necessarily experts in these areas.

I like to connect the dots for the families. Yes, I think that's a great. Yeah, well, I think because for anybody who's listening. So Doctor Alvarez does work in high conflict, uh, divorce, custody situations with the focus on the kids, um, and all the trauma and stress and everything that can kind of come around that.

And I think,

01:02:30.950 — 01:06:45.690 · Speaker 1

just in case anybody listening, you're already got your hackles up and you're already like, uh, I don't know, just this energy of like, prove it. Gotta do. There's I think this mistaken belief that a lot of people have, and especially a lot of women like clients. I know that at different points in time, in my own self, in my own life, um, have that like when it's high conflict, they've always got some case to prove or they've got to explain it, um, to and it's like what young lawyers do if they're thinking about making a case to the jury, right?

Or even to the judge. They have to, like, connect every dot, cross every t every eye, and don't allow the people whose job it is to figure stuff out, to figure it out. Um, and so for everybody listening, I think as that's going to be my, my number one thing for us to think about is people who perform the roles of third party neutrals as reunification therapists.

You know, if you've got a good one of those people in your situation, they are going to connect the dots. And you don't have to sort of like spell every single thing out. And to the extent you try to, it will probably backfire on you. Um, but I was thinking the way we could start is to talk a little bit, Doctor Alvarez, about the roles that you play.

So, like, when would somebody listening come into contact with somebody like you? Maybe they live in Austin or in Texas. Maybe they live in another state. Like what? How would you describe the work you do and how would they come to like, meet you in general. So the majority of my clients are court appointed.

Now, the ones that are not I have a referral base of, you know, attorneys or word of mouth, other clients, you know, just other professionals, you know, in my field will also refer, but the majority come through the court system as a third party. Okay. So what would the court say? Like Doctor Alvarez, you're appointed as a what?

So right now I am focused on family work. So family therapy I'm focused on parenting work like parent facilitation or parent professional. Mhm. Right. And I will occasionally still do some psychological evaluations. I no longer do custody evaluations. I used to do those but tapped out of those. Those are grueling.

Yeah. And um, just, you know, overly contribute to the adversarial courtroom, you know, situation. And so I've really focused on the family. And so I do a lot of family work and I do. I love the parenting work, actually. It's very, very challenging. But, you know, I know so much about the science and research of toxic stress and the neurological effects on children, and it's just so important for me to educate parents about that scientific research literature in ways that they can understand, so that they can make the best decisions, you know, for their children.

And it's a challenge because my goals and objectives aren't necessarily the goals and objectives of the adversarial legal system. And so I'm constantly having to navigate, you know, what I want to have happen as versus, you know, what an attorney is trying to accomplish for each parent. Yeah. Because the idea would be right that in a, in a contested situation, so contested would mean, right where they're the people are not aligned in what they want to have happen.

They're both sort of arguing their own perspective. So you would have, you know, if it's a if it's in in the middle of litigation, which, you know, this is it would mostly come up. So there's a case going on, a divorce case or a post judgment, a modification sort of case we call it in Texas. So you would have, you know, one parent.

And so mom usually like mom and their lawyer and dad or, you know, you know, and their lawyer. And then both of those sets of people are trying to advance one prospective mom and her lawyer trying to advance what mom thinks is right and what mom thinks is best, and what mom wants and what mom would say is, you know what mom wants for the kids, right?

And for herself. Same dad and Dad's lawyer are trying to say what dad wants and what dad thinks are best for the kids, and what dad would like to see for himself and for them. Right. And then there's you sort of in between really standing sort of in the shoes or next to the kids and what's best for them, and not necessarily what either parent wants.

Is that a fair way to to set it up? So yes,

01:06:46.810 — 01:10:19.380 · Speaker 1

I would describe it as even though I work with the parents on parenting strategies, whether that's co-parenting or parallel parenting. The children are my focus, and if I'm doing parenting work, I rarely meet the children. But. But everything I do with the parents is all about the children. And so the challenge for me is I'm trying to create a path forward for these parents in a way that will help them align on child focused or child centered issues.

At the same time, though, they're trying to collect evidence and data and facts for their attorney, and so they're never in a good spot with each other. And so as I'm trying to get them to move forward and heal in certain ways that would promote healthier parenting, you know, they have a case in the background.

And so I like doing the work. You know, I like it a lot, but it's very challenging. And oftentimes you're not going to make a lot of progress until the case is concluded and you get the adversarial litigation part out of it, litigation out of it, and then they don't have to collect evidence and facts for their attorney, and they can just parent well.

And I, you know, having been someone gone through this, you know, I think it's very difficult for the parent to ride two horses with one. But, um, and it would be great if they're all fully aligned. But I think sometimes what your lawyer is telling you and what the law might want and the court might want, and what is objectively best for your kids sometimes can be at odds, right?

I think a lot of people, in my experience, um, and I actually I was talking to Kathleen, our, our legal director at the firm, even before I came down here, I was like, okay, what are some things we want to hear about from Doctor Alvarez? And she was mentioning how, you know, um, the, the parents can, can so struggle of like, they're sometimes even afraid for the good progress with you that somehow that's going to undermine their case.

Right? And it can create this moral hazard. Right. To use like academic terms, um, a moral hazard between like what's best for the kids, sort of. Maybe even right now, you've got this other parent who all of a sudden who's been this punk for years and years and will never cooperate on anything but is playing, playing the game.

I'm using quotes, right? At least that's how that person would see it play in the game. And all of a sudden being like, cooperative. You know, Chad, uh, in, in the case and they can sometimes feel at odds for like, what's right now seems best for the kids and like long term. And all of a sudden because I it can feel that way, like everything has been so terrible for so long.

Like I'm just speaking on behalf of like, let's say we're moms are listening. Some moms, everything's been so high conflict and so terrible for so long. And then here we are. And this neutral comes in and for five minutes this person is acting decent and oh my God like feeling as a as a mom in that situation.

Afraid. Afraid for all of a sudden they're being like, yeah sure. Whatever you think about the education decision, you're like who are you? And what kind of body snatching thing is this? And at the same time, you know, wanting long term what's best for the kids and to get along, but also afraid that somehow there's going to be this trick and that that's going to work.

And then as soon as the court's gone, that they're going to be left with a consequence and maybe more, more time or more whatever for the dad that and then you'll go back to his old ways, like how what would you. I mean, I know that's a big convoluted thing I just explained, but that is how it feels. It's like it can feel at odds.

Progress with you could feel at odds to the parent going through it. Absolutely.

01:10:19.380 — 01:10:21.500 · Speaker 2

And one of the

01:10:22.780 — 01:10:51.760 · Speaker 2

many elements that I promote from my perspective, I promote it to families. I promote it to the judge, I promote it to attorneys is let's try and create a document, whether that's a final divorce decree or a final modification document that is tight and that will reduce the likelihood. And I have several elements that I like to promote for that.

That will reduce the likelihood that somebody is going to turn back to the courts to solve complex family matters.

01:10:51.880 — 01:10:52.880 · Speaker 1

What are the elements?

01:10:52.880 — 01:11:04.440 · Speaker 2

So for me, you know, to talk in, in, you know, the legal terms that I've learned over the years, really tight rights and duties to reduce the ways that parents have to make agreements.

01:11:04.440 — 01:11:51.890 · Speaker 1

Oh my God. Well, and that's on that one alone, the standard, at least in Texas, of people that I practiced with all the time is they want a joint. So rights and duties y'all there are in Texas they say heads meds and it's so you've got psychological rights, medical decision making rights and educational decision making rights.

And at least in Texas, what will happen is somebody has to have those rights. And generally speaking, uh, what I find and people opposite us will want joint rights on all of those. But the problem is, I've lived in a situation where there were joint rights and a joint, right, with someone who is a scorched earth personality turns into a veto.

um, so do you recommend instead they have a tie breaker or something like how do you want to suggest they set that up, or does it just depend I guess.

01:11:51.930 — 01:12:12.650 · Speaker 2

Well it depends, yes of course, but what what I promote is a real parallel parenting approach. You know, this whole notion of co-parenting being this somehow gold standard and co-parenting that that nomenclature in and of itself is just used widely. If people were able to co-parent.

01:12:12.690 — 01:12:13.690 · Speaker 1

They wouldn't be in your office.

01:12:13.930 — 01:13:06.710 · Speaker 2

They would not be in my office. I would not be court appointed. So that ship is already sailed, right? You know, for me. So I go into these families with out of the gate, let's parallel parent and try and see if we can promote through final, you know, divorce decrees or modifications, that same concept you do you on your time.

Okay. So you get to make educational decisions on your time, medical decisions on your time, psych decisions on your time, and vice versa. Now, if somebody is very squirrely and somebody is going to weaponise, you know, rights and duties that it all has to be taken into consideration. I get it, okay? But when parents have to agree on a psychologist, they have to agree on a pediatrician.

You know, outside of invasive where most, you know, I see most, um, final documents, final orders, you know, uh, seek agreements then. Yes. Tiebreakers are very helpful. You know, get somebody it's not perfect because they'll.

01:13:06.710 — 01:13:56.680 · Speaker 1

Be the other, uh, opposing counsels. I'm sure people that, you know, even here in town will be like, oh, you know, but tiebreakers know. So what that means, y'all, is two people would have like, um, rights that are by agreement and basically everything with kids. You can agree on whatever you want, but if you can't agree, a tiebreaker says this is who gets to decide.

And like for education decisions, they might make it the schools counselor or psychological decisions. They might say the psychologist or medical decisions, the kid's pediatrician. But then the counter response from any opposing counsel I mostly deal with on this issue, I was like, oh yeah, well, none of those people actually want to be the tie breaker.

And I'm like, well, it's better. It's better than nothing. I mean, at least we can start with that versus leaving the parents, where one person can just say, no, he doesn't need ADHD man. Mhm.

01:13:56.720 — 01:14:35.200 · Speaker 2

Absolutely. And I find a lot of pediatricians are willing to do it. Not everybody I get that. But pediatricians are generally able to do that. I'm so thankful you know, that they're there and willing to do that. But it's setting up, you know, rights and duties in the best way for that particular family. Yeah.

Okay. It's reducing any other way that these people have to reach agreements. It's finding the conflict that the triggers during a case. And they're similar, but somewhat different. It depends on each family. But let's say phone calls for example. Mhm. Okay. Scheduled phone calls. Maybe they are scheduled.

Maybe they're not. But maybe that's a big trigger for conflict. Yes. In this family.

01:14:35.240 — 01:14:36.920 · Speaker 1

And the kids are straight in the middle of it when it's fun.

01:14:36.960 — 01:15:20.700 · Speaker 2

Oh so you have to, you know, pull out like your top 2 or 3 areas of conflict for the family, and then create a path forward in a final order that addresses them so that you don't have lots of conflict post-divorce and squirrely behavior, and interpreting the orders the way that you think they are, and just weaponizing the children.

I mean, that's, you know, where children get damaged psychologically and neuro developmentally is when they're weaponized and, and the amount of toxic stress that their little systems endure that won't that shows to some degree at the time that it's happening. But you won't see the full effects for years.

01:15:20.860 — 01:20:10.450 · Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think, um, it's really important for us to slow down for a second because Doctor Alvarez and I deal with this stuff all the time, so we know exactly what we're talking about. But the parts of your decree, order, judgment, whatever it's called, where you are, that say, who get to make which decisions is probably the single most important thing in that document.

If you're dealing with a conflict situation for people who just get along, congratulations. Why are y'all getting divorced in the first place? But okay, you do you. Y'all are getting along fine. It's not even going to come up. But for the rest of us, those are the most important parts because that is where your life is going to get.

Like who can enroll in extracurricular activities and do you have to take or how does that work for people with kids who are active? That can be the single biggest cause of stress for you for about 5 to 7 years of your life. And if one parent claims the other parent is enrolling on soccer or on their time to somehow thwart their parent, you know, go into horseback riding, like whatever can happen.

So anybody if you're in the middle of a divorce or, you know, right at that phase, make sure you are asking your lawyer to explain to you how decisions about psychological like, what if there's ever a mental health diagnosis? Who gets to decide whether we're getting testing? Who gets to decide whether we're taking medication?

Who gets to decide if we need to go have therapeutic talk visits along the way? What about education? Who gets to decide if we need an IEP or an ARD? Or who gets to decide if we're taking gifted classes or AP classes, or how that's all going to work, right? Um, who decides if we need additional support at school?

Um, and then when it comes to medical, like, what about, you know, different kinds of surgeries or getting wisdom teeth out or, I don't know, something that maybe would make the kid feel better, look better. Maybe we have a birthmark situation or whatever. Who gets to decide whether we need to do something about that?

And you need to understand from your lawyer. Stop. Do not pass. Go. Do not sign anything. But what I see all the time happen is lawyers at mediation. Just slide that right on past you. And I know that because I get them as a modification, where they come back on the back end and they'll be like, I had no idea that this said this, right.

Not for me. I will like throw down and I make the clients, like, sign off on something that says I told them do not agree to joint decision making rights unless, I mean, there's some parties who they know they're going to be fine. Like it's really just I'm not in love with these situations. Okay, fine. Um, but for the other parties, if a court's already had to get intervened, if you've had to have temporary orders, if there's enough where y'all are willing to wind up at the court or you wind up with somebody, Doctor Alvarez, you're going to need to understand real clearly.

And I think that's smart to get it, to minimize the conflicts. Like some of the most traumatic moments of my divorce and custody drama involved FaceTime phone calls and the way all of that works. In fact, um, it's one of the reasons I filed a custody modification in the first place to have my kids come back, ultimately come back and live with me primarily.

Um, a big part of that was because of getting access to phone calls and getting that normalized and using the app, our family wizard. And just to get some, some structure, because my orders in the decree, I didn't have all of this set up. So that's the thing, y'all. If you don't get it right the first time and you're in high conflict, you're going to find me and Doctor Alvarez again and spend a fortune.

Um, to get some of the things you could have gotten in the first place. That's right. Um, you know, one thing I was thinking about Doc Alvarez. So for people listening, how would they know whether they qualify as high conflict? And I ask this because I think a lot of us get really normed out to our own experience and our our threshold for what's high, what is conflict?

What's high conflict. And different people have different barometers. They have different sensations. And I always say this, I always try to explain to people, look, everybody's heart is as hard as they can deal with in their own life, and we don't have it's the same percentage for them as your heart percentage.

It's just that they don't have the same capacity because they haven't had to go through as much. So what I mean is, in my own life, as time would go on, people would be like, I have no idea. How do you deal with this There's an ongoing basis out of debt. And I'm like, look, I'm so used to it by now that it doesn't tax me in the same way in your life.

One little sassy email might get you right. It doesn't require the same bandwidth for me. So I think that sometimes people are not sure whether they're high conflict. I'm using air quotes like high conflict the way you're talking about it. Um, or maybe he's just kind of a punk and they're getting divorced and he's getting on somebody's nerves.

So can you help us think about, like, when is the certain level of high conflict that they might end up seeing you? Like, how would they know in their own life? Like, oh my God, she's talking to me. Okay. Yes.

01:20:10.450 — 01:20:31.130 · Speaker 3

So I'll answer that in in a couple different ways. So first of all, take a look at how much conflict did you have in your marriage. Um, you know, because post-divorce conflict rarely becomes post-divorce conflict. It's just an extension of intact family conflict. All right. So that's the first place I like to, you know, take.

01:20:31.490 — 01:21:16.900 · Speaker 1

Wait a second, though. You know what, though? I think I wonder if you think this is true. Yes, and I think that's true. And I think there's probably a growing bit of women. And I probably think of myself in this situation, who who swallowed a lot and didn't have the conflict for the sake of the peace and kept it all inside.

And only as she in the divorce, starts finding her voice and reclaiming her power that like that's when the clawing and gnashing of teeth starts. That's when the freakout starts. Um, do you see that? I mean, that that like, because I think to your example, like, um, I think there are a lot of women who just eat it for so long and then something busts in them and they can't eat it anymore.

And then that's when they find themselves in the, like, outward conflict. Maybe there's internal conflict. Does that make sense?

01:21:16.900 — 01:22:22.320 · Speaker 3

It does. So you can have active outgoing conflict in the intact family where it's very obvious there's arguing, there's, you know, yelling, there's just dissent, dissent, dissent. And you can have what you called, you know, I consider internal conflict where, yes, you know, somebody in the relationship is just eating it and just trying to keep the peace.

But if you didn't, there would be massive amounts of conflict. So it's not that there isn't. It's just somebody has tried to, you know, temper it and create, you know, the least conflictual environment for the children. All right. Okay. So examining the conflict in your situation, you know, whether it's overt or covert at the time, as well as if the court is appointing or attorneys are asking for third parties such as amicus or guardian ad litem or, you know, psychologist or parent facilitator, that is my threshold definition.

You know, of a legal example of high conflict is when you you need all these other people to get help you solve your problems.

01:22:22.360 — 01:22:42.490 · Speaker 1

Right. So for somebody who's not quite at that point yet, but they're wondering, um, look, I wonder if I'm going to have to find somebody like that, do I need the money for that kind of a person? Is that going to come? Like, what do I need to go through? It sounds to me like, look, the way you might think about that is look in your life right now.

How does it go? When somebody tells that guy what to do?

01:22:42.530 — 01:22:43.490 · Speaker 3

Exactly.

01:22:43.530 — 01:23:16.690 · Speaker 1

How does it go when you disagree about the right outcome and you're willing to say something? Is it a disaster? Is it stomping? Is it throwing stuff? Is it anger? Is it rage? Is it manipulation? Is it. No way, no how, no way in hell we're doing whatever that thing is that somebody said just because they. If no other reason.

Because I ain't going to be told what to do. Like, if that's the tone, then probably their likelihood of ending up in a high conflict. You know, legal definition, high conflict situation is most likely. Is that fair? Like for them to think ahead?

01:23:16.730 — 01:23:18.850 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. I mean, if you

01:23:19.930 — 01:23:58.990 · Speaker 3

have, you know, a palpitation in your heart at the thought of trying to talk to the other person because, you know, through experience that is going to be very, very difficult. You know that that should be a red flag for you, you know. So communication skills, how are you able to communicate now? Can you solve conflict.

You know. Now what what did it look like when you had conflict in the marriage? Do you have negotiation skills? Compromising skills? You know what? Tell me about flexibility. You know, are you guys able to be flexible, or are you going to need something that renders you little flexibility, which is those real tight final orders that the court just tells you what to do and how to do it, because otherwise, you know it's going to be a disaster.

Well, and.

01:23:58.990 — 01:25:13.560 · Speaker 1

That's the thing. So it's like flexibility if I was thinking about that is both the the best blessing. And ultimately it can be the biggest curse in your orders. So it's the best if y'all can be flexible and work together. That's amazing. Like all look everybody, we would want that. We're talking for the rest of us.

Who that's not the situation. And like to your point about the orders lacking that flexibility because I think this is where a lot of people would probably get got. Is their lawyer well-meaning as they are? Maybe they're not even divorced themselves. So what do they know about all this? Honestly. And living it out daily?

They just read about it, um, or listen to it. Um, but one of the outcomes, I think, that's so important has been absolutely essential in my life is to get as much rigidity in the order as possible. So there is no room for interpretation, because anytime there's a room for interpretation or loopholes, if you're not with that flexible person who gives the benefit of the doubt and is willing to give sometimes, and they get sometimes and compromise, then what I found and what I've heard in doing this and learned over time is you've got those sorts who will get inside that loophole and exploit it and make a crater that you can just get stuck in basically for the rest of time.

01:25:13.600 — 01:25:32.780 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. And for high conflict personalities, it's like a game. It's like a sport, you know, to try and exploit, you know, as many vulnerabilities in the person, you know, the other parent as well as in a final order. Why do you think people do that? High conflict personalities. The fuel is conflict.

01:25:32.900 — 01:25:36.300 · Speaker 1

Yeah, that's what gets them, I guess that gets their dopamine and serotonin.

01:25:36.340 — 01:26:16.860 · Speaker 3

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's power and dominance and it's coercive control. And, you know, all of those things that that we know float with high conflict personalities. And so the people who can get along and don't seek out, you know, attorneys or don't need to seek out attorneys and third parties and all of those things, you know, they have much more manageable personality traits.

Yeah. And so that's why they're much more successful. And you have to account for that. If you have a real high conflict personality in the dyad, you know, and the mother father, that's really important to understand. That's really important to consider because they're a very high risk for returning to court, you know, to act on the court.

01:26:16.900 — 01:27:14.110 · Speaker 1

Well, they like it. I mean, and if nothing else, they have your attention. Ladies, if you're the one who's leaving and 70% of divorces are filed by women, I guess. So, um, it's usually the woman leaving, and this is the way he can keep. Keep hold of you. Um, keep, uh, trying to. If you won't be with him, ain't nobody going to have you.

You know what kind of the the thought might be? What kind of fella would want to join up with you if you've got, you know, back in court every five minutes and some huge custody drama sort of situation. So I think it's it's it's very hard for me and difficult for me. And I think a lot of women listening to to understand how someone could ever act like that, like, I don't, I don't like conflict.

I don't like fussing with anybody for any reason. I mean, I can't, I will if I have to, but always trying to find them reasonable ground and you know, all that. And I think generally speaking, that's how most women I know are. I mean, that's not to say that there aren't some women who, you know, that they just go for bore.

They're going to make him pay. And like all of.

01:27:14.110 — 01:27:17.230 · Speaker 3

That, the conflict is is high in the in the female. That's right.

01:27:17.270 — 01:27:33.130 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. And that happens too. But it's like it's hard to imagine or or find empathy or sympathy. I don't know which one it is for people who would behave that way, to the point that they're willing to do whatever to your children, um, to get to you.

01:27:33.170 — 01:27:50.930 · Speaker 3

That's right. I mean, the children are just weapons in these very high conflict families. The children are weapons. It's never about the children, despite what their pleadings are. And you know what? They testify in court or deposition. It's not about the kids. The kids are weapons to seek revenge.

01:27:51.290 — 01:29:59.710 · Speaker 1

You know, when that's happening to you. Um. It's hard, um, when that's happening to you, it doesn't feel like people see, um, because it's it's not as overt as going to, like, they're not using the kid as a literal weapon. It's not like the kid is a battering ram at you physically or something. I was trying to picture a kid as a weapon or pretend they're a baseball bat.

Like, obviously, um, it's often in these subtleties and in these framings, and so much of it happens when you, the parent, are not there. You just see the after effects of how this feels and what it's like. Um, to the person going through it, it can feel really, um, discouraging and disheartening and overwhelming, and you can feel really alone when you know in your own heart you would do anything for these kids.

You're trying to put them first and trying to always do the next right thing for them. And and then you've got this other person who at every turn is doing these subtleties that if I just told you it, you might be like, what's the big deal? Like, no, you don't understand in the context of all of this. So like, how what would you say to that person who's going through that and feels like they're alone in it?

People don't understand. They don't see like, how do you see that play out? Like how how can they trust that somebody like you? And I know everybody's not as good at this as you, but how can they have any trust or confidence that even though they're feeling this way, that the truth will out like that. The truth will show.

Because in the moment it doesn't feel like that. And also, it feels like everybody's looking at you like you're crazy. Maybe even your own lawyer and judges will say things like, they'll chastise you, like, can't you two just get along like, y'all need to compromise for the sake of the children? And you're like, you know, by golly gee, if only I would have thought of that.

If only I would have thought of compromising, then maybe I wouldn't have had to spend $100,000 and ten years of my life dealing with the situation. So, like, how is she supposed to believe that people will see, like, how are they going to see it? Because in the moment, that's not what it feels like.

01:29:59.750 — 01:31:13.810 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. And so truly, you have to do your research and you have to advocate for yourself, because not every attorney is is expertly experienced in these complex family dynamics. And certainly from my my world mental health professionals. Not everybody has the expertise in high conflict. They may say that, but to truly understand the complex dynamics that are involved that would qualify for what we're talking about, you need to understand that just because somebody has an attorney listening in, you know, on the website and all of that, or there's, you know, psychologists, not everybody gets it.

And if you find somebody who doesn't get it for you and doesn't seem to understand the insidious ness of a high conflict personality, I know the children aren't being used as baseball bats, you know, or ramming rods, but what's happening is, you know, that toxic parent is is convincing the children over a period of time that the the healthier parent is wrong and bad and scary and dangerous and doesn't love you and.

01:31:13.850 — 01:31:40.620 · Speaker 1

Silly and and goofy and always gets things wrong. That's a thing that I think people miss. It's like all of those things are true. And or they just aren't respectable. They they never quite get things right. Um, that's one that it's like hard to explain how it's like the undermining of the sort of value and worth of that other parent that they're sort of like worthless or kind of stupid.

01:31:40.660 — 01:32:09.980 · Speaker 3

Absolutely. It is. And I think undervalue is a perfect word to put to it. It's just chipping away at the child's confidence, you know, in that parent to take care of them and to be that person that will protect them. And it's just that insidious chipping and concurrently with, you know, the toxic parent, the high conflict parent is, you know, presented as I've got your back, I can take care of you.

We've got this. Come to me, us against the situation.

01:32:09.980 — 01:32:11.460 · Speaker 1

And we're on the same team.

01:32:11.580 — 01:32:34.200 · Speaker 3

Exactly. And some attorneys to, you know, make it full, full circle for you. Some attorneys understand that very well, and some mental health professionals do, but not everybody. And don't feel discouraged if you find yourself in a situation where it doesn't seem like you're being heard, your voice doesn't matter.

You know, somebody already has preconceived notions about what to do for your case without listening to you.

01:32:34.240 — 01:36:17.220 · Speaker 1

Well, and I think, you know, one thing I was thinking about, um, is a lot of lawyers love to say this. I can't stand it when they say it, but they say it. Well, tens don't marry twos. They say this all the time, like, au contraire. And I think it's such an insulting and disrespectful thing to say what they mean.

They. It sounds like it's physical. Maybe they mean that, but what they really mean is, oh, it's not like he or she is just nuts. And you're Miss Mother Teresa, right? That they, they try to to shame you or gaslight you in a way to say that actually y'all are really norms to each other. And I have found a lot of times that is just I'm sure sometimes it's true.

But a lot of times in these situations you've got one person, I call them scorched earth. They would rather burn the whole earth down and everybody and everything in it so that you can't have it, than to find a way that we can at least share this one little plot of of land, um, with some trees or whatever the analogy would be.

And so I think, you know, for anybody listening, um, it's like I automatically my brain I'm also hearing a caution because you want an attorney who will listen to you, um, and who doesn't say things to you like bulletins, don't marry twos or like, I mean, come on, you know, they don't give you this sense that they think you're also an idiot, uh, or all wrong, or they don't see your perspective.

And I think some clients, having done this for a minute now, will use almost try to weaponize this idea. You're not listening for me. You're not advocating for me, when really the lawyer is trying to give you good, sound legal advice, um, and practical, experiential advice of how to handle a situation, but it doesn't jive with your narrative and what you want to hear.

So it's like you have to find counsel and be it, you know, your friends in your life, literal legal counsel, psychologists like people in your world who will balance hearing you out, but and also being willing to tell you the truth, right, of like, hey, yeah, I mean, I get it that that's annoying, but I don't know that it's the like.

Also, you didn't really tell him in advance that there was a this and that on that date. So when he scheduled the birthday party and you didn't tell him you were going to be out of town, like, how was he supposed to know? Right. And it's a little bit of that balance because I've seen it from both perspectives.

And I think, um, the more likely a client is to say, you're not advocating for me to us, to us lawyers, at least at my law firm, I can speak for myself. The more I'm kind of going, hmm, I know us and we advocate for our people, and I'm curious if what's going on is we're not advocating in the way that you want us to.

Right. Um, and I think, I think finding that right counsel and being willing, if you are with somebody who doesn't make you feel like they're hearing you, you truly don't think they're advocating for what's going on. They're just trying to move your file along and get some paper signed and moved on. Um, I think, you know, being willing and not afraid to say, hey, maybe I need to make a different choice in this situation, I guess is kind of, you know, kind of the good advice.

You know, one thing I was thinking about, too, you mentioned parallel parenting as opposed to co-parenting because everyone says, oh, you're a co-parent. They call them the co-parent. Yes. And every time I hear that word is like and the idea is, this is sort of can't you to get along for the sake of the kids?

Um, idea. That's what I think of with co-parenting. And for some people that is so fantastic. And they they are sweet to each other, and maybe they even remember each other's birthdays or holidays or whatever. That's great. Y'all can be co-parents. But what do you mean by parallel parenting as a contrast to co-parenting?

What's the difference and what's the value? Perhaps in in either in the at least parallel parenting approach. Like when does that come in?

01:36:17.220 — 01:36:36.860 · Speaker 3

So I come out of the gate with parallel parenting. Okay. Again, if you know, I am being court ordered to intervene with a family, their their past co-parenting, you know, in my situation that would be a gold standard, something to, you know, attain for. But we start with parallel parenting because the objective is to decrease the conflict.

01:36:36.900 — 01:36:37.420 · Speaker 1

Right, right, right.

01:36:37.460 — 01:37:10.630 · Speaker 3

And parallel parenting can achieve that because you keep these people separate. You know, you you do things in ways that require very little interaction. You only follow the court order as it's written at, you know, the temporary orders as they're written, you know, very carefully, and then you make your own decisions on your time, and you make your decisions on your time.

And I go to the extent of if the activity falls on your watch, you show up. If the activity falls on the other parents watch, you don't show up and vice versa. Like to go.

01:37:10.630 — 01:37:12.230 · Speaker 1

Attend the t ball game that's on.

01:37:12.230 — 01:37:30.550 · Speaker 3

His. That's right, that's right. Now special performances or special concerts or things like that need to be taken into consideration. I get all of that. So there's some individualization, you know, with all of these. But these people have such a hard time being in the same space, and we want to put them in the same, you know, on the same sidelines or in the same stands.

01:37:30.590 — 01:37:33.030 · Speaker 1

When kids have to leave the game and go to where.

01:37:33.070 — 01:38:08.050 · Speaker 3

They don't know what to do. I've written so many parenting plans about that. Okay, child exits the field. All right, came a dad. This is dad's possession time. Child exits the field, but there's mom sitting there. And how to write a parenting plan. What they do to help these parents know what to do and follow it.

I mean, you know, parents are smart enough. They know that they don't want conflict for their child. But, you know, when you're involved in a high conflict litigation case and you're collecting data, there's so many times that that supersedes what should be done for the child.

01:38:08.090 — 01:38:09.570 · Speaker 1

Yeah, well, because they want to show.

01:38:09.610 — 01:38:10.610 · Speaker 3

Oh, well.

01:38:10.610 — 01:38:16.570 · Speaker 1

Every time after soccer, when he's done, he ran straight to me. Because we have the more, you know, primary relationship.

01:38:16.690 — 01:38:29.810 · Speaker 3

That's right. I'm going to tell my attorney that this is a data point, you know, for me and my attorney. And it's not a data point for the other parent. You know, there must be something wrong. And this is where things just go south. And when you talk to these children, when they get older.

01:38:29.850 — 01:38:30.490 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:38:31.050 — 01:39:00.010 · Speaker 3

It's heartbreaking, you know, to hear their stories of childhood. And that's the one thing I say to parents, what do you want your child's memories to be this. You want to have memories to be this, right? And of course, you know, when you put it to most parents, that way they get it, but they can't get out of, you know, the situation, the, the legal case, the the constant battering by the other parent.

Yeah. You know, to implement with a no is right.

01:39:00.170 — 01:39:13.220 · Speaker 1

Well, and you know one thing, there's that longitudinal study that was done that a lot of family lawyers talk about like in the collaborative divorce world. It's it's not the actual divorce that really harms the children. It's the ongoing conflict. It's a conflict.

01:39:13.260 — 01:39:13.940 · Speaker 3

Absolutely.

01:39:13.940 — 01:44:00.130 · Speaker 1

And so, you know, I think, like I was thinking when you said like to the, um, the parent, you know, what do you want your kids memories to be? I could just hear one of the parents being like, well, it depends. Will she act right or not? I mean, the memories would be fine if they would just essentially just did everything I wanted the way that I wanted it.

And it's this idea that any disagreement or departure from what they want is you creating the problem. So the whole thing is your fault. Yes, that that framing is very difficult in the moment as the parent, because what I'll tell clients, just the truth is like, look, and for moms, I mean good, bad or indifferent, this is what I've seen is, look, if you're a mom and you're in a high conflict situation, generally speaking, they're going to expect you to be Mother Teresa.

They're going to expect you to be the perfect mother and the perfect mother who has no emotions and doesn't lose their shit, who doesn't, um, freak out? Who doesn't cry when they're sad in front of the children? Who is able to keep a very even keeled, disciplined perspective despite whatever sort of insanity may be happening to them, through them, around them, to their children, and still maintain that even if he's freaking out and doing whatever it's like, it feels like I'm talking more as like a person who's been in it.

It feels like, well, that's kind of like it's like so much craziness can occur on another side that you, as the mom who's trying to be the example, like good sense and good reason and putting the kids first or whatever perfection is required, lest one thing you step out of line, they got you there. You're never going to hear about nothing else except that one pop off, you know, tipsy email you said at 1:00 in the morning in response to something you're going to hear about nothing else.

The rest of that case except that one email that you sent. So I'm not saying that's exactly true, and I'm sure very smart people like you will figure it out over the course of the case. But it's it's a difficult spot and I can speak just for women because I am one. So I mean, that's how I know how to talk about all this.

Um, to be in these cases where your heart is literally being or figuratively, but it feels literal being ripped from your chest and you're almost made to, like, eat it and let everybody watch while you're just calm and acting like you like it. That's how it feels in the moment. And to the person going through it, it's like it takes such a high level of discipline to accept this bullshit in this moment, and how bad it is and how much it's hurting the kids and how much you know it with the promise of eventually the truth will out.

And this is going to work out. And every and I say it's a pound of flesh. It's going to be a pound of your kid's flesh to get that custody modification change. You want something somebody is going to have to have suffered. Those kids are going to have to have experienced some harm or the course. We're not going to change custody orders.

It's fine. So it's like being willing and just having to accept what is on the promise that it will eventually get better. I think takes such a high level of emotional, um, uh, maturity and acumen and inner resources that a lot of us in the middle of a divorce or in the middle of a custody modification don't have.

So I wonder how people or, you know, what advice you would give them who are in that situation. Like, for me, fortunately, I don't struggle with any mental illness. I don't take any kind of, you know, uh, psychological drugs or anything. I have a pretty decent, positive emotional set point as a person, and I'm born a certain kind of way who can deal with such things, happen to be a lawyer.

So I knew the benefit of long term creating your record, not popping off, not losing it. Even though every person in the history of ever would, we would be completely justified in their minds with telling that person exactly what they can do with themselves in the moment, but in the moment you're just smiling.

Mhm. Mhm. Oh well. Mhm. You know just it's in some ways it's like you have to take on an alter ego in that moment. That's how I had to think of myself sometimes it's like a video game. Like I'm playing myself like a video game. Not to cry when maybe your kids are saying ugly things to you or you've learned that yet again, there's some cluster that means your kids aren't going to be able to be at this thing that's really important to them or, you know, so it's like you have to act differently or something.

So I don't know, anyway, like what advice you would have to people who are in the middle of going through that when they may not have the resources, they may struggle with mental health, they may be completely dysregulated. And like, how are they supposed to cope in these situations and deal when their environment is calling for, um, probably what it would feel justified to kind of have a bonkers reaction, but they can't be bonkers lest they lose their kids.

Maybe.

01:44:00.130 — 01:45:18.110 · Speaker 3

I know it's a real conundrum. I mean, what you just described has so many moving parts. Yeah. So what I would say is women, especially because there is a kind of a gender difference between what is socially acceptable for moms and women and their reactions versus dads. So I get all of that. You know, we still have that even, you know, even today, those social gender differences.

It's self-care. You know, you have to mitigate, you know, this this path that you're trying to take through self-care. You know, there's a lot of trauma that women, I think is underexplored and under, you know, not well understood. Yeah. You know, especially for non mental health professionals. And so what comes out as a frantic 1 a.m. email.

You know that somebody pounded out on the computer that of course that's going to you know be great data point for somebody because it happened at 1:00 in the morning. But what does that really mean? You know what's really going on with that woman? You know that woman that at that time? Yeah. You know, that makes her dysregulated like that.

And there's a lot of trauma, you know, coming out of these toxic marriages. And you have to engage in self-care and self-care for your children.

01:45:18.150 — 01:45:19.270 · Speaker 1

And what do you mean?

01:45:19.430 — 01:45:50.310 · Speaker 3

Well, it depends on what works for you. All right. So for some women, the dysregulation and the emotional trauma is significant enough where you need mental health care. Psychiatric care. You know, for me, medication is never a bad thing. That means that you're doing what you need to do to become balanced.

You know, if you needed an antibiotic for your sinus infection, I think that would be a really good thing. It shows that you're taking care of yourself, right? Right. So for me, when I used to do custody evaluations or psych evaluations, you know, mental health care was a positive if you were taking care.

01:45:50.310 — 01:45:50.710 · Speaker 1

Of, I think.

01:45:50.750 — 01:45:51.070 · Speaker 3

Yeah, we.

01:45:51.070 — 01:47:51.220 · Speaker 1

Ought to pause on that for a second, because I think a lot of people are afraid of it, that. Oh, he said that he's going to tell him, like, I can't take care of the kids or I because I take and, you know, these depression meds, maybe I should stop taking them. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think the overwhelming majority of anyone with any kind of like education or insight into this world wants to see and the courts want to see someone who is taking subsequent remedial measures.

Right. Um, they've got some sort of an issue, some sort of a psychiatric psychological issue, but they are getting the care that they need. I mean, I I've seen that and I've also counseled people, I want you to get the mental health care that you need. Keep in mind those records are going to be admissible in your case.

Right. So it's a it's a tightrope, y'all. You need to get the care you need. And a lot of people don't know this. Regular folks who don't deal with this every day that whatever you tell that psychiatrist, that psychologist, the other party will likely in discovery be able to get their hands on. And if sometimes you're having suicidal thoughts like, why should I?

I mean, I wouldn't blame you in the middle of a divorce and you're dealing with this high conflict situation and, um, you're afraid you won't have your kids anymore. Like, maybe the kids would just be better off without me. You know, this moment that you might have. Um, maybe it'd be better if I just took some sleeping pills and just didn't wake back up.

Well, it's awful, and I could throw up, and it's just the facts that you're going to hear about that again. Mhm. Right. Because my experience courts are real worried about people who have talked about harming themselves, having the kids, even if it was one off, it was a one moment they're taking all the medicine or whatever.

So I just say that to say I agree and the self-care and the psychological part and my lawyer brain, in the part that is always trying to like, make sure the women see what's coming for them, um, is keep in mind that you may hear about it again. So you have to balance, like getting the care you need and creating a situation that would look one way when it's not actually that way.

Mhm.

01:47:51.260 — 01:48:07.950 · Speaker 3

Right. And from my perspective, I think part of what that also entails, if that is the case, if you know somebody had an extra really bad moment and they did make a suicidal ideation comment, right. You know, you want to make sure that you have an attorney who will fight to keep that in proper perspective.

01:48:07.990 — 01:48:08.630 · Speaker 1

Right.

01:48:08.670 — 01:48:36.790 · Speaker 3

You know, so that's the segue between, you know, the mental health and the legal. And just to reassure women that there's a lot of really good attorneys out there who will fight to keep that in perspective, because it can be a one off. And you have to show the context and you have to, you know, help the court understand.

You know, I realize, you know, suicidal ideation comments are very serious. Yeah, but not all suicidal ideation comments lead to suicidal behavior. Right. You know, the relationship is very small.

01:48:36.990 — 01:49:05.960 · Speaker 1

Yeah. No, I agree, I think it's just one that we always have to I always try to warn people, so they just don't realize that those doctor records are coming in because HIPAA. Right. You can't get my doctor records. Well, the thing is all the legal thing is your mental health is in issue in issues like a legal thing.

Um, it's the main point. One of the main points of a case involving kids. So that's why they can get to those records. But okay, so self-care in terms of maybe mental health and things like, I guess, exercise and exercise diet.

01:49:06.000 — 01:49:55.100 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Friends your activities, you know, what? Have you given up along the way? Is it possible that you could pick up something that you gave up, whatever that is? You know, just taking women back to being grounded, you know, in certain ways. What used to make you feel good? Yeah. You know, and you have a very busy life, and you have all of this going on and just being realistic.

Can you just do one of those five things that you used to do? Let's start small. You know, let's create ways to feel good. Because if you're running on empty, I think about it like a gasoline tank. If you're not filling up your tank with any good positive experiences out there, then you just run on empty. We all know how cars work on empty.

They don't, you know, they just clunk along and stop. Okay. And so you've got to, you know, input enough positives to keep yourself going and it and it can domino effect in the right direction.

01:49:55.140 — 01:50:39.300 · Speaker 1

You know what I'm thinking about though is self-care. I'm thinking of myself. So that would have been a good advice for me to do those self-care and rely on some of the tools and things that I had naturally. And I have education and a master's, you know, before I even went to law school, like all of this, these tools, I'm also thinking about what about for the people who and the women who haven't really developed the conflict resolution.

The, you know, sometimes you don't say everything that comes into your head. You don't have to express and emote every single emotion that you ever felt. You keep the main thing, the main thing, and be disciplined and measured in your response. Like, what about for those people who, you know, I think sometimes self-care wouldn't be enough.

Like, they need to learn how to do this.

01:50:39.300 — 01:50:40.780 · Speaker 3

So skills you're talking about.

01:50:40.940 — 01:50:42.140 · Speaker 1

Like they need some skills.

01:50:42.140 — 01:50:43.820 · Speaker 3

Skill based. Yeah.

01:50:43.860 — 01:53:20.940 · Speaker 1

You know, intervention which, you know, mental health professionals are quite capable of doing that as well. Okay. But in order to learn skills. In order to learn to, you know, temper the emotional expression, you know, you're going to have to deal with, why are you emotionally dysregulated in the first place?

That's where you have to start. You know, if there's some trauma, then that needs to be tackled because it's really hard to learn, you know, the skills and the things that you need if you're internal network is dysregulated. You know, if you're always activated, you know, if your brain is always on high, what have they been in this, you know, a little a abusive I'm not necessarily calling it capital a abusive, but this this power imbalanced, you know, shrinking loss of voice marriage.

You know, that that is characterized by that. And then all of a sudden they're thrust in the middle of this situation. I think that could be really hard to access and use those skills while they're not even recovered from their current circumstance for their own self as a woman and a person. right? Because they are there, right?

Where people before were moms and when the underlying person still is struggling with the treatment in the marriage and how they feel and how they feel about themselves and their loss of identity and their shifting identity and their fears about the future. It will always be alone now and all of that. And then to throw in high conflict where perfection seems to be required.

Um, I think that's a very tall order. You can learn it. I certainly learned it just by doing it more than anything. Um, I've had clients where, you know, I just have to keep telling them. Look, you got to keep putting one foot in front of the other, doing the next right thing. Laws and rules are for law and rule abiding people.

So whatever all the things that you you have to let him do whatever it is that he's going to do. And it's sort of like parallel functioning, right? Like you do what you're supposed to do next, and then what's the next right thing for the kids? Always asking the question of what's best for them in the long term and allowing yourself off the hook to worry too, too much about how this is going to play out in the short term.

What are the lawyers going to do with this, etc. because really, it's probably outside most of our pay grade and and more than you could process, even if these were your skills. Like, that's why lawyers don't represent themselves or even like their best friends and stuff in their cases, because it's too close to us, right?

Um, and so I think that that's important to, to consider. And just like how your, you know, going, going about this, leaving that part to them and also,

01:53:22.180 — 01:58:03.180 · Speaker 1

I don't know, acknowledging the reality of what the situation is like. This is a real this is a really hard place to be. Come in. It's I think it's a little easier once it's a modification because you don't have the fresh heat of the divorce, right? The custody modifications. The other thing is in a custody mod or a post judgment in, you know, modification or change or whatever you call it in your state.

Um, y'all already been through this one time, so it is not a surprise to everybody how this whole process goes. So there's some less fear about that. The money part is mostly handled. You know you're not in those same emotions, at least at least in Texas. More than likely at least a year is passed. Um, so you've had some time to gain some healing, but when it's very fresh and you're in the middle of the divorce, it's a really hard spot to be in, to be both a healing, grieving woman and a mother Teresa.

Mom, absolutely. It's such a dichotomy, and I find helpful to women to help them stay centered is let's figure out what's the most important thing, or 2 or 3 things to focus on. And I use it in my terminology with with parents. Which hills are you willing to die on? Right. And which hills are you not? Because you can't die in every hill, right?

Or you will eventually, you know, just evaporate because you cannot sustain this level of conflict. And so prioritizing. Talking about expectations. Okay. Both from a legal perspective with your attorney and from a psychological perspective, you know, with your therapist, you know, and what's most important to you.

All right. Because, again, you know, you may have 12 things. Do you want to spend eight years in court, you know, accomplishing these things. Right. What do you want to do? What's the most important thing. And then wrap that around that. What will decrease the conflict for your kids? You know, which hills are you willing to die on that will be the most meaningful and reduce the conflict for your children because they're the ones that don't come out of this?

Well, I mean, the scientific research literature is, is very alarming about what happens to these children's brain development and psychological development as well. Yeah. You know, and what the outcomes for them are as adults. Yeah. Do you know, one of the things that people always say to you when you're in the middle of this is the kids will figure it out.

The kids will figure it figured out. Don't worry. The kids will figure it out. Do you think that's true for a lot of children? That is true. But damage done. Yes, they figure it out because their frontal lobe advances and develops. Okay, so yes, they figure it out. But the effects of the toxic stress response that, you know, lasted unabated for years.

That's the damage you can't undo, but let alone the years you missed and the years you missed. And, you know, just all of those effects. But from a logical, analytical perspective, yes, kids do figure out. They figure out who is the parent who was working so hard all of those years to influence my relationship with the other parent, my perception of the other parent, you know, my everything related to you, the other parent.

Those things get sorted out when the frontal lobe develops. About how old are you? Is there a is there an age? Let me ask you like that. Is there a common age where you in? Maybe it's different in boys and girls or, you know, whatever. Is there a common age where they start to go, wait a minute. Wait, what? What was that?

Like, why was I so mad? What did they say? Okay, so here's what I've seen happen. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, there's not, like, a hard and fast, you know, when there's 17 or 18. So there's some variability depending on intellect and personality structure and just, you know, the level of conflict that the child sustained.

At what age did it start. So there's all those moving parts. But here's what I've seen. The same dysfunctional parent toxic parent or spouse, let me say it that way. The same toxic spouse that you had to deal with becomes the same toxic person to the child as they grow older. So when they reach upper adolescence into young adulthood, and that parent can't as easily influence them or control them, or clamp down on them like they did when they were children.

The same toxic personality traits that you had difficulty dealing with in your marriage, your child will have difficulty dealing with as a young adult. And that's where at the same time, the frontal lobe is much more mature. And so there seems to be kind of a coalescing of well. Brain is in better position to understand this.

And then I can I'm personally experiencing what my mom experienced and I don't like it. And so you see a natural separation. And a lot of these kids who are now young adults, do you think and I've.

01:58:03.940 — 01:58:26.620 · Speaker 4

You know, have a suspicion, I guess, too, that sometimes they might see it, start to see it through the lens of their friends, or a friend might be like, hey, that's weird. And it never occurred to the kid that it was weird. Like once they start allowing the outside friend influence and sometimes a poignant friend may say, like, wait, what?

Why can't you just call your mom?

01:58:26.660 — 01:58:27.660 · Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly.

01:58:27.700 — 01:58:30.940 · Speaker 4

And then that puts the kid going, yeah, wait a minute.

01:58:31.100 — 01:58:45.910 · Speaker 1

So. So it's the critical thinking skills. So that's what you touched on is one of the casualties of conflict for children. One of them is a loss of critical thinking skills in these very high conflict families. And so children just lose the ability to ask those critical questions.

01:58:45.950 — 01:58:50.070 · Speaker 4

Does it delay it? Is that what it does? It delays when they get access to that.

01:58:50.150 — 01:58:52.630 · Speaker 1

It can. It interrupts it significantly.

01:58:52.630 — 01:58:54.750 · Speaker 4

Yes. Can it be repaired?

01:58:54.790 — 01:59:02.150 · Speaker 1

Yes it can. But at the time that it's happening, they think very early, you know, up, down, right, left, all or none.

01:59:02.310 — 01:59:02.390 · Speaker 4

Of.

01:59:02.430 — 01:59:37.240 · Speaker 1

Them. And they don't think about that didn't make sense. They don't think in ways. Well, dad just told me that mom has never been there for me. And yet she makes my lunch. She shows up in the carpool. She makes sure I get up on time. They fail to take that next step and say, that doesn't make sense at the time that it's happening with that toxic parent.

And it's not until yes, they get older and they start to experience the toxicity themselves, and their frontal lobe develops that they start to be able to go. That didn't make sense. Okay. My mom was there for me. And they can list 18 ways that my mom was there for me.

01:59:37.280 — 01:59:45.959 · Speaker 4

Well, let's just say, very hypothetically speaking, that that was somebody listening. Um, and maybe

01:59:47.520 — 01:59:48.959 · Speaker 4

their child didn't

01:59:50.040 — 02:00:04.200 · Speaker 4

get it yet. What could that mom do to leave the door open so that if as and when that child started to understand, they would just know they could walk right back in the front door?

02:00:04.240 — 02:00:52.660 · Speaker 1

Absolutely. You have to make that apparent. You have to make sure that that child. It depends. So there's I'll throw out, you know, several different avenues and some strategies that I have recommended to parents. Okay. So you never stop trying. You never you never miss a birthday, you make a call, you send a card.

You don't know if the cards will be delivered, but you you never want to stop. You want to create at least some kind of paper trail, you know, for example, I go a step further with parents and I encourage them to keep a journal that you will give to your child someday. You know of important moments and dates.

You know, thinking about you today. You know, today would have been, um, you know, you would have probably got your driver's license today. You know, thinking about you on this day so that you write it in real time and you can present it to your child.

02:00:52.700 — 02:01:06.940 · Speaker 4

Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. It's hard. I tried to do that at one point a long time ago. Um, back in the beginning stages of all of this for me. And it was. It was like staring into the sun. I gave up, I did, I gave.

02:01:06.940 — 02:01:53.030 · Speaker 1

I know, and and I don't want anybody to feel guilty for having those despair moments because it happens. I mean, it's awful. You know? So you feel it. Talk about it. Share it with others. Do what you need to do to get back in the saddle and then try again. And the good news from a brain perspective is, you know, the frontal lobe is not fully developed until 27, 28.

And so that's the good news that there's lots of opportunity for, you know, the still estranged or alienated, you know, child to come around. But it takes years and you just have to be that person because almost always they come back because the toxic parent is now interfering in their life.

02:01:53.070 — 02:02:14.190 · Speaker 4

And when they do, um, are people, generally speaking, able to build build a, a good relationship? Yes. Does the child feel like when they sort of start to wake up this child who's probably an adult by then? Um, do they do they typically feel this sense of like, oh my God. Like,

02:02:15.430 — 02:02:25.910 · Speaker 4

I'm, I'm just like, do they have this sense of like, it's a second chance? I mean, maybe each person, maybe it's differently. And I guess it depends on what happens for each, each family.

02:02:25.910 — 02:02:44.530 · Speaker 1

So what's really important is when when a young adult, you know, child reaches young, adulthood reaches that level. You don't want the burden in front of them, the obstacle in front of them to be guilt. And that's why along the way, you don't do things that would create guilt. And so you just want.

02:02:44.530 — 02:02:47.050 · Speaker 4

To know, no, how could you have done this kind of.

02:02:47.130 — 02:02:59.890 · Speaker 1

Absolutely. So none of that, because you want the child's going to feel very hesitant, or the young adults going to feel very hesitant and very unsure because now they've realized, oh wow, I was wrong. Okay, I got it all wrong.

02:02:59.930 — 02:03:14.970 · Speaker 4

Well, and it's hard for anyone to admit they were wrong, let alone a kiddo, when they're so much on the line. Absolutely. And loyalty. And what is what is this realization that maybe they got it a little wrong? What is that realization going to cost them with the other parent?

02:03:14.970 — 02:03:28.370 · Speaker 1

And so when you talk about unconditional love, okay, this would be unconditional love on steroids. I mean, a parent has to know strings attached, zero strings attached. Just come on over. I'll make you dinner.

02:03:28.410 — 02:03:29.890 · Speaker 4

Yeah. Just walk in the front door.

02:03:29.930 — 02:03:56.300 · Speaker 1

Would it be, you know. Hey, let's meet at chick fil A. No strings attached. You you follow the the child's lead. Yeah. Okay. You can't have your own agenda in this. You've got plenty to say, I get it. You have your own hurts, and you've had years of, you know, dealing with the loss, the grief and loss of a child, even though the child isn't, uh, isn't in the ground, you know, in the cemetery, you lost a relationship.

Yeah. It's awful.

02:03:56.340 — 02:03:58.060 · Speaker 4

And every milestone you miss.

02:03:58.100 — 02:04:13.820 · Speaker 1

Every milestone, everything. And so not to minimize what the adult feels, but you have to be able to. When I say unconditional love on steroids, I mean, you got to take it to the next level and you just show up. You're just present.

02:04:14.420 — 02:04:40.480 · Speaker 4

Ever. Doctor Alvarez is ever in in these people's lives. Does it come to where there's a moment, they go back and talk about it? Or is it just where we pick up and build a new and and people just kind of. They just don't you just don't go there. Or maybe each one's different. I don't know, I just don't I don't hear that much stories from people in my experience of this part of the person who came back around and how that went.

02:04:40.520 — 02:05:42.250 · Speaker 1

Exactly. Because they're adults and there's no the jurisdiction is over. Yeah, right. They've aged out, so there's no more jurisdiction. So no, you don't hear about it. You have to start in the present. Yeah. Okay. You have to meet that now young adult child where they are now. So today is the 16th of February.

All right. What's going on with you? How did you survive the ice storm? You know. Tell me about your job. I'd love to hear about it. Oh, it's gone. And you reestablish that emotional safety because for years, that child has heard how you are dangerous and emotionally, you know, dangerous physically and emotionally.

And so you have to reestablish that emotional safety. And then, yes, they'll go there and then you can have, you know, those heartfelt comments because they need to heal as well. Conversations, heartfelt conversations. They need to heal as well. They they lost a parent. They lost the opportunity to have that parent experience their world through their eyes at the time that was unfolding.

Yeah. And so both people are hurting. But let's just start where it's safe. Let's just talk about today.

02:05:42.290 — 02:05:47.610 · Speaker 4

Well, and I think that that's, you know, any of us, we can relate as adults who if there's some.

02:05:48.210 — 02:05:48.850 · Speaker 1

Somebody who.

02:05:48.890 — 02:06:23.130 · Speaker 4

You, um, loved a lot at one point and then things got hard and maybe there's a big space. And what all of us would want is just to start small. Let's just get a bit of water back under the bridge. Let's get a bit of normalcy. And then eventually, when the person is ready, they could say something. I mean, that's what we would all want to have happen.

So I think, you know, look, there's not I'm not aware of that much where people talk about that part because I think especially as women like, it can feel very shameful. Um, and embarrassing.

02:06:23.170 — 02:06:24.490 · Speaker 1

Absolutely.

02:06:24.530 — 02:06:26.210 · Speaker 4

For your for something to happen.

02:06:26.210 — 02:06:33.510 · Speaker 1

That's why You're a mom. Yeah. Why would your child reject you unless you've been in that situation? Right. And you're one of those moms, too.

02:06:33.670 — 02:07:32.520 · Speaker 4

And we, you know, we understand. And I think it's this, you know, the silver lining of it is it certainly teaches you, um, the power of, of creating a safe space for other people. And it's certainly rids you of all judgments that you might have ever had in a harbored for other people. Um, and I think what it does to is also can strengthen your relationships with your other kids if you have multiple, you know, because I think sometimes it happens.

There's one kid and not necessarily everybody. And I think that's another layer of trauma and grief for everyone, because there was like one set of memories of the family in one way and then another set of memories and so much that happens that that other part of the family, miss, and everybody else was moving on and doing these other things.

And, you know, the kids have their own feelings of like, this person wasn't here. Like, what do we do about their room that they're not in anymore?

02:07:32.560 — 02:07:32.920 · Speaker 1

I know.

02:07:33.080 — 02:07:35.440 · Speaker 4

How long do we keep it? Just as it was.

02:07:35.480 — 02:07:41.640 · Speaker 1

I know just those nuts and bolts, you know. Do we turn it into an office? Do we turn it into another playroom? I know.

02:07:41.680 — 02:07:54.800 · Speaker 4

Right? And I think that, you know, for anybody listening, um, there is so much depth here and so much nuance. And I think it's also just a good time. Oof! It's hard for me, um,

02:07:55.880 — 02:08:22.080 · Speaker 4

to remind people that, you know, that that what is it, Tolkien quote or something that says that everybody we meet is fighting a hard battle that you know nothing about? Um, and you never know who you're talking to, who you're commenting on, their social media post, who is your coworkers or whatever. You have no idea.

We know that in our job, the amount of shit that may be going on in their lives. So, you know, we're all just people walking each other home. And to find a way to access a little bit of kindness.

02:08:22.120 — 02:08:22.720 · Speaker 1

And grace.

02:08:22.720 — 02:09:54.390 · Speaker 4

And grace. Yeah. And just you might think you'd act one way in a situation, but you might find that should you find yourself in that same situation that you may not, um, act the way you think you might when you're being a keyboard warrior or when you're, um, judging the gal down the street who all of a sudden her kids aren't with her, or she's sitting alone at the t ball game looking sad, you know?

How about instead you say, hey, come sit with me. What are you doing? Oh my gosh, look at him go like. And I think that's the way that us women can show up for each other. And I try to do that with any of my friends or people that I know who are going through a divorce or in one of these sticky spots to just try you. You feel alone when it's you and you feel even, no matter if you got all the family and all this and all you're you're in a new situation.

You're showing up to these school things in a different context. You're not one of the marrieds anymore, and you're on your own. And that's more abnormal. Um, and I think one of the things like just action steps in case, um, you know, maybe you're not. It's not as. As as horrible for you, but a way you can show up to support those.

And especially if you've been through it, I think we have a duty to. When you see that woman alone or whatever, to be conscientious in how you talk. Invite them to sit with you when it's like inviting people to do stuff. Don't just do it like, oh, all the couples, right? Like just being inclusive. It's a good exercise to do.

Um, I think that there I remember very specifically the couple or few people who did that for me, um, along the way. And I think it's a way that we can do.

02:09:54.430 — 02:10:04.310 · Speaker 1

Absolutely, absolutely. And for if you've been through it or you're further along the journey of this horrible, you know, uh, family dynamic.

02:10:04.350 — 02:10:04.870 · Speaker 4

Yeah.

02:10:04.910 — 02:10:23.320 · Speaker 1

It helps you to heal when you can turn around and help the guy behind you who's not quite as far along as you. Yeah, it's it helps that person as well. But it's just powerful to be able to use your grief and loss in a way that maybe you can help the guy behind you not suffer as much as you did.

02:10:23.360 — 02:11:21.180 · Speaker 4

So I remind you. The purpose of my life. Um. So I have my firm. It's why I made the show. It's why I did the courses and have the groups for women is exactly that. You know, to go turn around for the people behind me who maybe didn't have some of the the gifts and blessings and things that I had to do it the way I did it, and to come back and also say the things I wish somebody would have told me, or that I wish I would have known, or stick out a hand to say, like, you're going to be all right, like you're not going to end up alone.

You're not going to never talk to your kids. You know, whatever the fears are. Um, so. Oh, man, we could talk forever. Doctor Alvarez, I was, ah, I didn't even ask you any of the questions I had. And I thought you think about for parental alienation and that topic. So we're definitely going to have to have you back next season if you'll come, um, and talk a whole that y'all there some of y'all, if y'all have heard of Doctor Alvarez may want to know her thoughts on that.

So just like a preview, um, of the next time I'm doing it. But last couple things we always ask, um, our guests the same sort of questions, And one.

02:11:21.180 — 02:11:21.860 · Speaker 1

Of those is.

02:11:21.860 — 02:11:32.660 · Speaker 4

Just like, what's shaking you lightly? Like, what if there's a book, a TV show, a concept, a thought? Is there anything that you've been sort of ruminating on and wrestling with lately?

02:11:32.780 — 02:12:03.060 · Speaker 1

So I've been practicing a lot of self-care. Hmm. Okay. You know, my my kids are older, they're young adults. And so I'm in a position in life where I can return focus to me. So it's like coming full circle when you're an adolescent and everything is, you know, focused and centered on you. And so I spent, you know, decades focused on others.

And so I focus on self-care. I am really big into pickleball and mahjong and sometimes in the same day, well, look.

02:12:03.060 — 02:12:03.580 · Speaker 4

At you.

02:12:04.580 — 02:12:20.310 · Speaker 1

Socializing. I've got lots of groups I belong to. And so yeah, I do. I mean, I can spend a lot of time thinking and reading scientific research and literature, which is fine. I need to do that. But I have to balance, you know, with things that don't involve that at all.

02:12:20.350 — 02:12:37.910 · Speaker 4

Oh, yeah, well that's good. I mean, we could take a lot. We'll all be Doctor Alvarez. Whenever we grow up, we'll get. It'll happen like they're little and crazy. And there's T-ball and everything right now, but, like, we'll eventually get there. I know for me, what I've been thinking about lately is the power of a woman's desire

02:12:39.390 — 02:12:40.709 · Speaker 4

and how

02:12:42.350 — 02:12:53.190 · Speaker 4

vilified and rejected and, um, I don't know, belittled and joked about that is a woman who wants something.

02:12:53.190 — 02:12:54.350 · Speaker 1

That's right. Because it's a threat.

02:12:54.350 — 02:13:12.430 · Speaker 4

It's a that's a threat. I was actually just, um, submitting a proposal for a Ted. Talk about a woman's desire is both a threat and a promise, and it's a threat to society as we know it, because us women are taught to be selfless and put everybody ahead of ourselves. And all of, like.

02:13:12.670 — 02:13:13.230 · Speaker 1

Women.

02:13:13.230 — 02:13:41.970 · Speaker 4

Stifling their desire is sort of the fuel upon which I think a lot of things run And there's also the promise. In it. I think that only when we really develop a relationship with what we want and perhaps even start to form a commitment to getting it, um, will we obtain the promise of fulfillment, self-actualization?

Um, you know, words like pleasure, joy, peace, all of that is when we make that relationship. So anyway.

02:13:42.010 — 02:13:43.570 · Speaker 1

That's what I've been thinking about lately. I could.

02:13:43.570 — 02:13:43.730 · Speaker 4

Go.

02:13:43.730 — 02:13:45.730 · Speaker 1

On about that. That's great. For a long time.

02:13:45.850 — 02:14:07.370 · Speaker 4

Um, it's, you know, because I think and even in what we're talking about, this conversation, like what I wanted, I had stuff that down the whole way to do what was best. And it is I'd do it a million times over. I would do it a thousand times. I don't regret it. And, um, I'm in a season now to think some thoughts about, like, what do I want and what do I prefer?

And my preference matters.

02:14:07.410 — 02:14:08.770 · Speaker 1

That's right. It does, because.

02:14:08.770 — 02:14:42.460 · Speaker 4

I'm a that's a person. Everybody else's preferences don't have to rule my life. I only I'm the main character of my own movie. Um, And. Okay, so then whenever you heard the name of the show, not saving it for later, right? Um, the central premise for us is, you know, we're not saving a good life for later. We're not saving our dreams, um, for later.

We're not saving anything for we don't know when is later. Right? Later is now. Later is a lie. Um, so is there anything that came up for you when you thought about not saving it for later? Anything in your life you saved for later, you tried to stop doing so?

02:14:42.460 — 02:15:07.940 · Speaker 1

As I've gotten older, you know, again, the concept comes back to you as you raise your children and they get older. That being present, yeah, is really important and not saving it, you know. Oh, I'll do it next weekend. I'll, I'll, I'll go visit so-and-so next time. You know, making an effort to do those things now and being present now instead of just putting things up on the shelf for later, later, later, later.

Because later comes and you still didn't get it done, right?

02:15:07.980 — 02:15:50.480 · Speaker 4

Yeah. And the thing is, later is hypothetical. Um, we only ever experience pleasure, peace, prosperity, joy, grief, happiness that anything in the. Now. So when you're always thinking about later, you're just delaying all the good stuff. So, uh, yeah, I think about this all the time. I have to remind my husband says it's true.

Says it to me now all the time. Remember, we're not saving it for later. Whatever the little thing is, you know, it's a good little joke for us. It's a good reminder for me when I'm trying to do something stupid. Um, okay. Last one. So if you were only going to give one piece of advice to the women of divorce land, right?

So we're sort of thinking about getting divorced in the middle of it. Maybe they're after it. It's in the rearview mirror. What one counsel, what one piece of advice would you give them?

02:15:51.120 — 02:16:28.450 · Speaker 1

The one word that I use is self-care. And I know that that might seem cheeky and overused and, you know, those kinds of things. But if you stop and think about what all of that encompasses, it's my most powerful word, you know, to say, because it encompasses so much. You know, it's taking care of yourself in multiple ways, at multiple levels that benefit you and those around you, you know, and your path forward, especially if you're in a situation where your your children's mental health is at risk or you're estranged or alienated from a child, the best thing you can do is be in the best shape for when they come back.

02:16:28.570 — 02:16:29.010 · Speaker 4

Mhm.

02:16:29.210 — 02:16:30.890 · Speaker 1

And that's your self-care. One of the.

02:16:30.890 — 02:17:08.490 · Speaker 4

Thing is what's underlying self-care is someone who will take care of themselves has already decided I'm worthy of being cared for. That's right. And I think for women so much at the root, if you just dig, dig, dig and ask more questions gets down to am I worthy, I worthy of a happy life? Am I worthy of a good life?

I was doing a webinar one time talking to women and and one of them had said something like, you know, I don't know if I'm worthy of having a good life. And I think if you're willing to take care of yourself, you've made peace with that fact, right? Or at least you're going to act as if, which that's a lot of the lesson of all of this is you have to act as if, you know.

02:17:08.810 — 02:17:13.190 · Speaker 1

Fake it. You make it till you make it. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with that concept. And if you treat.

02:17:13.190 — 02:17:30.910 · Speaker 4

Yourself as something, someone who's worthy of care, then sometimes maybe that's how you can learn and convince yourself. Maybe there's been a lot of statements to the contrary your whole life, or evidence of people treating you differently, but actually doing the thing. Like, watch what happens if you say, you know, it matters what I want to eat for dinner.

02:17:30.910 — 02:17:42.670 · Speaker 1

Sometimes when you exude that confidence and people treat you differently, and then that just rewards what you just said, you exuded confidence. And so you do it again and you get better, you get another result, and it just starts to snowball in the right direction.

02:17:42.710 — 02:18:00.510 · Speaker 4

Yeah. All right. Well, definitely. Um, ladies, we are just so honored that you joined and shared with us all this experience. And I know you have so many credentials and knowledge and for meeting us where we are, not all the big psychological words or whatever. Thank you so much. And I think we are gonna have to have you come back, that's for sure.

02:18:00.550 — 02:18:03.750 · Speaker 1

I'm happy anytime. Happy to come back and and talk again. This is.

02:18:03.750 — 02:18:05.350 · Speaker 4

Wonderful. Thanks, doctor. Alvarez.

02:18:05.390 — 02:18:06.190 · Speaker 1

You bet.