KERRY_REV.txt

English (US)

01:00:00.080 — 01:00:06.680 · Speaker 1

What is a narcissist like? What does that mean? So many people use that word when they really mean asshole.

01:00:06.720 — 01:00:13.280 · Speaker 2

According to the DSM five, there is nine criteria that define a narcissist, and you have to meet at least five of them.

01:00:13.640 — 01:01:21.780 · Speaker 1

Let's be honest, most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown. Later when the timing's right. Later when you finally stop caring what they think. Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Henry Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage.

This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. Well, welcome, everybody to not saving it for later. I'm your host, Hannah Henry Bell, and I am so excited for all of us for a conversation I've been looking forward to having for a long time with Doctor Kerry. Um, she is a clinical psychologist who, I guess, is it fair to say specializes in narcissistic abuse and everything that goes with that.

She has an incredible personal story and how this is, you know, more than just academic exercise for her. And I'm so thrilled for her to be here with us. Doctor Kerry, thank you so much for joining us.

01:01:21.900 — 01:01:25.700 · Speaker 2

Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show. I deeply appreciate that.

01:01:25.740 — 01:02:20.040 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Of course. Well, and you know, when I think about narcissism, I have a lot of thoughts. And, you know, the first thing that comes to my mind is what a buzzword this is. And this is my perspective, both as a person who gets on social media and as someone who is a lawyer in my day job and has a lot of clients who come in and claim that they're married to a narcissist and they've always been a narcissist.

And what do I do? And, you know, I wondered if we could just start By explaining to us, what is a narcissist like? What does that mean? Because I think so many people use that word when they really mean asshole, or they really mean, um, jerk or self-centered. And so could you talk to us a little bit about getting all on the same page?

What does it mean to be a narcissist, according to you?

01:02:20.080 — 01:02:40.280 · Speaker 2

Well, it depends on how deep you want me to go clinically. I mean, I can start to do a breakdown of what's happened. And from a psychological standpoint and the makeup of their psychology, that makes them a difficult person. But let's keep the lens wide for a moment. It from according to the DSM five TR, which is sort of the standard,

01:02:41.440 — 01:04:27.760 · Speaker 2

uh, manual that clinicians use to diagnose somebody. There's nine criteria that that define a narcissist, and you have to meet at least five of them. I don't know if I can do all nine off the top of my head, but essentially it is your manipulative and relationships your core route. Way you approach life is from jealousy.

You tend to feel superior, entitled to to that things about life. Um, you're lacking in empathy. You're really struggling and connecting to other people. As a result, your intimacy life is not really a reciprocal. It's kind of shallow and superficial and at a core base. And this is I don't know if this is in the DSM five or not, but the person who approaches things from a narcissistic perspective looks at it from more of a predatory or exploitative direction versus collaborative.

They're antagonistic. In other words, they tend to be people who are very difficult to get along with because they're disagreeable by nature, and they seem to see the world as unfair and at a disadvantage to them, and that they deserve it, that they're because of their special status. They should get what they think they deserve to get.

They tend to struggle with impulse control. So as a result, they they go for what they want, when they want it, and they don't really care about the consequences of when they pursue those things that in a, in a, in essence, is a narcissist. But we could also look at kind of psychologically how do they treat individuals and people.

Because the problem when you have that kind of makeup is that you don't really see people as human. You see other people as as tools, as is assets in your life or resources. And as a result, then you're not very invested in the outcome of your behavior.

01:04:28.000 — 01:04:38.960 · Speaker 1

Well, you know, one thing I was thinking about as you were talking like, wait a minute, wait a minute. They live rooted in jealousy while they're also feeling superior. Like, what is that about?

01:04:39.000 — 01:05:05.300 · Speaker 2

Well, it actually connects. It makes perfect sense, really. So if you think you're essentially a better person, a better human being than other people, that you deserve the best, and then you see other people get out ahead. You don't see them as better than you. They're less than you then. You'd be jealous of them.

You'd think. Well, that's not fair. They don't deserve that. They're not special. Why would me, who's special not have that? And they would have that. Do you see? Do you see how that connects?

01:05:05.340 — 01:05:40.180 · Speaker 1

If we break that down. I mean, that person, from the sound of it, is not someone that just objectively we would be like, green flag, right? Like when you hear those things. Like, obviously for people listening who haven't lived in this life, obviously you dummies, you wouldn't want to be around somebody who acts like that.

You wouldn't want to be around somebody with those kind of behaviors. Like when you just hear those in a row, you're like, well, shit, that person sounds terrible. Obviously I would stay away from them, I wouldn't do you know, yet a lot of people find themselves married to this kind of person. So.

01:05:40.220 — 01:05:42.220 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And I married somebody like that.

01:05:42.260 — 01:05:42.740 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:05:42.780 — 01:05:45.180 · Speaker 2

And I'm a clinical psychologist, right?

01:05:45.220 — 01:06:20.920 · Speaker 1

A psychologist who's, like, specialized in figuring this out. But could you you know, before we talk about how that happens, Could you do the next piece and tell us? Like, how does this happen to a person? And I think it matters because it can also help us maybe spot patterns when we learn about somebody's history and we learn about maybe what they've been through, like, hey, if you add these things together, maybe you can see it.

Or if you're wondering if you're married to someone or in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist, maybe you can help think through whether that's actually true based on how they would have gotten there psychologically. So could you tell us about that?

01:06:20.960 — 01:09:30.260 · Speaker 2

Yeah. So the old thought was it was had to do with child rearing and particularly with how mom interacted. And we used to think that they had an entitled, indulged life that just made them think that they're extra special. I'm thinking, for example, I don't know if you saw the film years and years ago, it was up for Best Picture, The Last Emperor.

This is a child who was just, like, lived an extraordinarily pampered life because he was born an emperor. And they would say, okay, obviously if you been treated as extra special, then you assume you're special and you don't see people as people. But now the thinking is, is that it's much more complex than that, that maybe these individuals are actually born hard wired differently.

So, for example, you know, if you think of a person's psychology, there's all sorts of aspects that go into making us who we are. How good are we at delaying gratification? Are we able to have insight into our own behavior? Are we able to forecast and predict problems when we look at a problem in front of us?

Are we a person who's really sensitive and intuitive to other people? Are we somebody who feels essentially like, um, like we like to be known and we want to work cooperatively with other people. These are all sort of kind of traits that we're that make up an individual that's kind of hard wired into a personality.

And what the thought is now is that some of us come into the world with deficits in these areas. We come in with some strengths and we come in with deficits. I mean, that's true for anything. Like if you look at how you do at school, you may be fantastic at math, but really struggle in English that that would be another way.

Kind of view this as what if at a at a personality level you have strengths and you also have weaknesses and these weaknesses, the key areas that would make you a difficult individual, that would sort of set you up for this disorder, would be struggle, being in tune to other people and empathic and connected, uh, having difficulty with, um, being self-reflective and learning from from problems, from failure, being extraordinarily sensitive to failure and stress and sort of see that as an injury to yourself so that you struggle with kind of dealing with your emotional health.

You don't really know how to deal with your emotional health very well. So we're thinking that some of these individuals have come into the world this way. And then for whole, complex reasons, the way life turns out for them, they don't learn better strategies as they're going through life, their environment, for whatever reason.

It's not necessarily bad parenting. It could be for lots of complicated reasons. Maybe there is a crisis when the the child was born and the family was focused on the crisis, or maybe there was just not the right connection between parents and child, so it wasn't quite the right fit. You know, you may have somebody who's extra fussy and then parents who are really nervous.

That might not be a really great combination, you see what I'm saying? So it could be for a whole host of things. But it's not one thing. It's it's probably it's what we call a biosocial problem. In other words, there's biology. That's that's set them up for inherent problems. And then their experience in the world didn't help them learn new ways to sort of offset that.

And then that caused a development of this personality style.

01:09:30.420 — 01:09:33.860 · Speaker 1

Well, and would it run in family? Okay. So I'm just tracking with you.

01:09:33.900 — 01:09:34.940 · Speaker 2

It does run in families.

01:09:34.980 — 01:09:46.640 · Speaker 1

Run in families where, you know, they have a narcissistic mom, and then she produces a narcissistic son who produces narcissistic daughter like. And the cycle continues. Is that how it happens?

01:09:46.680 — 01:09:58.920 · Speaker 2

Yeah. In fact, they've done twin studies. The twins raised apart, and they found that certain forms of narcissism has upwards to 70% likelihood to co-occur. And both twins even though raised apart.

01:09:59.240 — 01:09:59.640 · Speaker 1

Oh.

01:10:00.040 — 01:10:02.920 · Speaker 2

Well, there is a strong genetic component to this. Yes.

01:10:02.960 — 01:10:32.920 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Goes to the bio part, you know. Yeah. And one of the things I feel like I remember reading this somewhere, uh, is that these folks will often get a real strong affinity, like for sports teams, um, that they get super duper attached. Um, one of those sort of people who is, like, their day rises or falls on whether or not their team won, not like, oh, I'm bummed my team won.

That's a bummer. But truly sort of enmeshed. Is that right? I mean, did I dream that?

01:10:32.960 — 01:11:12.020 · Speaker 2

I haven't heard of that, but that's an interesting to think really rapidly. What do I I mean, I've seen a lot of people do that and I haven't really noticed a connection to narcissism or not. I mean, but but what you're sort of you're talking about is that. Back to the comment I made about struggle with dealing with failure.

And you're even saying, well, it doesn't even have to be a personal failure. It could be a over identification with an external whatever, say, a football team. And then there's failure with that. You're a fragile person, a person who's got a sick kind of psychologically hard wired, brittle would really struggle with that loss that you're right, that would be very impactful.

Now, is that a clear test for narcissism?

01:11:12.020 — 01:11:12.460 · Speaker 1

Not like.

01:11:12.500 — 01:11:14.500 · Speaker 3

In the DSM that but yeah.

01:11:14.540 — 01:12:25.120 · Speaker 1

Of course. Well, and you know, one of the things and just like this is very anecdote, for what it's worth, um, is that these folks because you're talking about this like superiority and, you know, I'm better than it also feels like there's something in these people that also is like a self-hatred. Like, is there is there a component of I'm both the best and I don't like myself?

or are they like really sort of, you know, looking like narcissistic narcissist or whatever, right. The, the Greek, um, god that this or, I don't know, Greek something or another that this came from like staring at their reflection in the pond. So like Narcissus, you know, staring in their reflection in the mirror because he.

Or in the pond, because he thought he was so beautiful or whatever. It seems like what you're saying is that these people, um, do you have this infatuation with themselves? But just my sort of experience is that there seems to be this level of self-hatred or anger itself, or real disdain. I don't know, I don't know if I'm dreaming that up.

I'm certainly not a psychologist. But is that a known phenomenon or is that just I'm reading into it.

01:12:25.120 — 01:15:10.340 · Speaker 2

I think what you're picking up is not so much self-hatred, but rather an empty, dissatisfying, boring sense of life and with themselves. So let's kind of go back. Okay, So the superior they feel that they. So they're in fact the shame. We throw that word around a lot. It's not that they're shame based like oh, what a bad person I am.

Like that's a typical person would feel that way. You do something really embarrassing. Maybe you have like toilet paper stuck to the bottom of your shoe. You walk out and you think, oh my goodness, I feel like an idiot. That's not how they feel. It's more of a loss of status. I don't want anyone to think poorly of me.

Oh my goodness, I can't stand to have anybody see me as flawed or as not as as the holding the image up that I want reflected back to me. That's what they're looking for. Is it that good image reflected back? But when they look within themselves, there isn't anything really there. Because in order to to appeal to people in and preserve this sense of this sort of pristine sense of self, they don't really show up as a real person.

They show up in the way that they believe you want them to show up. So they're very good actors and actresses on the stage. The person you meet is a reflection of who they think. You need to meet not actually who they are. So when they sit with themselves and there's no one in the room to reflect back to, there's really no one inside.

Hmm. And as a result, that's a miserable feeling. That's not a good feeling. So I'm not for sure it's self-hatred, but more just boredom. I'm not even sure what word to book put to it, but they don't like sitting with themselves there. Always. That's why they're always pursuing things so much. They're always after the next thing or.

Or they're angry that somebody else happens to have something they think they deserve. So you may see they'll do a lot of kind of ruminating over the unfairness of how things turn out. Now that's talking about kind of the average run of the mill narcissist. There is another type of narcissist, and that's the cover or the what really is what we yeah, the cover or the vulnerable narcissist is really what the the proper word is vulnerable narcissists.

But we tend to in social media refer to them as a covert narcissist. That person also thinks that they're special, but they. They see their specialness and they deserve the most attention and care. So they come across as pitiful. Like life always goes wrong. I'm the worst victim in the world. Or they come across as they.

They're the most sacrificial. I give the most. I go out of my way the most people should appreciate me more. So when you meet that type, you'll you'll. They look like they're sensitive and really altruistic. But what you're actually seeing is no, it's all in service of the self. They're looking for that type of attention as as a form of attention.

01:15:10.340 — 01:15:49.680 · Speaker 1

Well, and one of the things you mentioned is how this person, a narcissist, shows up in situations sort of as a reflection in a way of like how they believe you want them to show up. My experience in real life is this person shows up with a little bit of a fuck you attitude, like, I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to get mine and kind of this brazen, um, don't really give a shit what you think about them, because they're going to get theirs.

They're their way or the highway. I mean, that's what I would think this person acts like. But maybe I'm seeing something else and just thinking it's a narcissist. Is that not how it goes?

01:15:49.680 — 01:15:55.200 · Speaker 2

My thought is, what setting are you seeing this in? Is it in the in the legal setting? Primarily?

01:15:55.240 — 01:16:34.670 · Speaker 1

I'm thinking interpersonally, just like folks out there that you meet. Um, and I'm thinking of a couple people in particular and a little bit like you would think that they would perceive that people are thinking they're a jerk or terrible or act, but it's like they develop such a thick skin to it and sort of this like, well, they are just wrong then, aren't I?

The, the, the winner, the king, the queen on the top of the mountain. Like you can fuck right off. I'm going to do this and almost get fuel for their fire by being hated. I mean, it's like the reverse. Maybe it's the attention of it.

01:16:34.710 — 01:16:40.350 · Speaker 2

Yeah, but I think really, when you sort of strip down what you're saying, that still is entitlement.

01:16:40.830 — 01:16:41.270 · Speaker 3

Hmm.

01:16:41.470 — 01:17:47.410 · Speaker 2

I am so all that. So I'm going to come in and beat my chest in this room to show you that I'm all that I'm the alpha or whatever, the alpha male, or I'm the alpha person in this room. And then you should then see that and appreciate for what that is. But also remember, the other core piece to this is dis agreeableness.

They're antagonistic people, which means they don't see themselves as needing to cooperate. That actually being vulnerable. Being known, working alongside and for something to them is is is ridiculous vulnerability. Because that's risky. Because you're not in control. Again, it kind of siphons around.

That's why we often talk about power and control. It siphons around. Not so much as you know, you and I would come into a relationship and see it as if I risk and then you risk. We get to know each other And then that's a really beautiful thing. No, they would see that as that's foolishness. Why would I do that?

Because if I'm risking, then I'm giving you ammunition to use against me, and then you could later hurt me with that. You come in more, they come in more with like a mask or bravado as a protection because they don't want to be seen and known.

01:17:47.450 — 01:18:00.050 · Speaker 1

Maybe. And it's like the way you're talking about it, that they see each interaction as almost like a game, a battle, a competition, yes, of who can win and who can be on top.

01:18:00.090 — 01:18:58.270 · Speaker 2

Yes, yes. Because essentially, I think this is what we get really wrong is we assume humans are basically the same. And then we have the core drives, the core needs. And it's actually not true. Each of us is kind of not only we're own unique person, but there are kind of categories of people and unfortunately, narcissists as well as those who are pseudo psychopathic or with psychopathy, that those groups tend to see things more from a competitive or predatory mindset.

They're more aware of what what could happen with exploitation. They live in a dog eat dog world. So I often think of, for example, this is the way I categorize the world. Most of us like to imagine that we're on a softball team and that we're all on the same team, playing different roles of that team. We're just working together for the good of the of the whole.

But that's not how this group thinks. How this group thinks is they're playing tug of war. It's one on one and it's to the death. It's a death match. And so they're they're playing to win.

01:18:58.270 — 01:19:39.450 · Speaker 1

So that kind of goes back to what I was asking at the top for, you know, and we're this is a podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. Right. So for us women, when we hear you describe what a narcissist is, as we sit here listening to this conversation, you're like, well, that would be stupid to ever like, how many red flags do you need to stay away from that person?

And yet so many of us end up in relationships with these people. Smart. Capable. Beautiful. Fun. Charming. Wonderful women end up in relationships with narcissists. Literally. How could that possibly happen?

01:19:39.530 — 01:21:11.750 · Speaker 2

Because they don't present as themselves. They present an image of you. We all have a core interior need that we wish you could meet ourselves. That would be the most attractive person in the world, is a copy of ourselves, and they're very good at presenting that when we meet them, because back to they don't want to be vulnerable.

Vulnerability would be giving you weapons to possibly use against them if you knew the truth of who they really were. And I'm not even talking about the bad things they do. I'm just talking about the ordinary things that they're human. If they believe that if you knew about their fragility as a human, that somehow you would use that against them because they would they would use that against you.

Absolutely. So why would they ever come in and be vulnerable like this? So they're hiding all of this stuff? Well, the best way then, to present and be super likable is to show up exactly the way that that person wants. And they're so good at this because they're like they said, it's been something that they've been born into.

So they've had years and years of practicing to know how to mask and hide and present in a way that's really amazing. And they've kind of intuited how to tap into human basic needs in order to get to get the best advantage. Like, if you were going to go into war, the best strategy is to study the enemy and then use the enemy's weaknesses against them.

What is our as a human need? Needs, weaknesses, what we want to belong. We want to be approved and loved. We want to be seen as special. And they weaponize those things against us.

01:21:11.910 — 01:21:14.550 · Speaker 1

Well, and how does someone then

01:21:15.670 — 01:21:54.810 · Speaker 1

spot this coming? Right? Like, not be fool. Because, you know, we've heard him talk on social media about love Of bombing and some of those things that can happen. But like for people listening who aren't in a relationship right now, or thinking about getting back out there and don't want to repeat their same patterns, if this person is going to show up and be all, you know, Mr. Charming and doing all the things he would think a smart, capable, wonderful woman would want, like, how can they spot it?

Or is there a turning point or something where they can't keep up this mask? And that's when the real bullshit starts. Like, how does that play out?

01:21:54.930 — 01:22:33.030 · Speaker 2

Yeah, that's a really great question. And I recently have become aware of and I need to do more of a deep dive into it. But Dina McMillan did a study where she found out that exploitative and predatory people basically have the same M.O., and she called it A to Z playbook, okay, that they're all working off of the same.

It literally doesn't matter the type of person, the sex of the person, the race of the person. They're all working off the same playbook. And it comes back to because what I describe, it's to them, it's literally a dog eat dog world. It's really hard to understand when you don't see the world this way, but they don't believe anybody has their back and I mean anybody, not their mom.

01:22:33.070 — 01:22:34.230 · Speaker 1

Never change.

01:22:34.230 — 01:22:42.550 · Speaker 2

No, no, not because it's a problem that creates the problem. If you don't think anybody is trustworthy, then why would you ever trust them?

01:22:42.550 — 01:23:03.590 · Speaker 1

But is there no way that you could get through to them? I mean, I think I've seen a couple things, like someone saying on I'm just recalling this from my brain, like maybe on social media that they realize they're a narcissist and they're like a recovering narcissist. Is that like a unicorn, or is that person playing to their narcissism by taking on that role?

Like, what do you think?

01:23:03.750 — 01:24:11.330 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think it's a unicorn. And those I do know narcissists who've done a lot of self work. I know at least one who's been in, like, I don't know, 7 or 8 years of worth of treatment. He would even say my bent, my natural bent is still to behave narcissistic. He has to catch it and then work against it. That's a lot of discipline.

That's a lot of self-control. And that also takes enormous amount of self-awareness, self-awareness. And if you're already injured in that way because they've done studies on the brain, they've actually matched them. I think it's nature. You can go out and look for a magazine article on nature, where they have a brain of a normal person and a brain of a narcissist, and where the most sort of energy and activity is, is not in the same areas, the areas that have to do with sensitivity, empathy is low.

There's not enough activity there. And then the areas that have to do with excessive mentation. What that means is excessive focus on how everything is being perceived through your world view is way too high. There's always come at it from the standpoint of what it's in it for me. What might this be about me?

How will this affect me? What what are they doing to me? There's this excessive focus on their self, their self reference.

01:24:11.370 — 01:24:36.950 · Speaker 1

In a relationship where somebody is, you know, gotten snowed in the beginning from, you know, him acting like, um, everything this person wanted does it. Does it turn? How can they spot it? Like, how can we make sure they don't get into this situation? And then I want to talk to you about for people who are already in the situation, but like, yeah, how can you see this coming.

Right. And make a different decision.

01:24:36.990 — 01:24:38.430 · Speaker 3

Before you're hooked?

01:24:38.510 — 01:26:26.310 · Speaker 2

Yeah. What they do do is they do a test for compliance. Because if you're a power in control addict and you really that's excessively important to you is a way for you to stay safe. I think that's the best way to view this. Think of it as a way to stay safe. Most of us stay safe by feeling like, if I can be known by you and that you like me and you're sympathetic towards me, and we feel a camaraderie, and you'll then appreciate my vulnerabilities like I appreciate yours.

There's this reciprocity around vulnerability, but if they don't believe vulnerability is is reasonable, they think it's ridiculous and it's dangerous, then what it's going to be about is maintaining control. If I can stay in control of the situation, then I'm not vulnerable. So that means then you need to pick partners because there's two I think there's two big goals that they're looking for.

They want partners that elevate them, that says, look at me, I'm worthy of this individual. So that's why very attractive together, powerful, accomplished women get pulled into them is because this group sees that as an attractive I want somebody that looks good on my arm. So they they see you as looking good on their arm.

But the other problem is, though, you can't be super strong in your own confidence and be okay with being able to walk away. They want to make sure there's a level of sensitivity, belief in change, self reflection, ownership of self so that they can then offload whatever goes wrong onto you and you're likely to take it.

So there's a testing period that happens. And usually they do it in a way in which it looks pretty innocent, but it's it's a test to see if you're willing to take on the responsibility for a failure of a situation. And if you do that, then they're like, See, this is a good candidate. And unfortunately, those of us who are normally just sensitive people who are care about other people in their reaction, we often do it just because we think it's a good thing to do.

We don't realize we've been tested.

01:26:26.510 — 01:26:28.750 · Speaker 1

Can you think of an example of what.

01:26:28.750 — 01:26:29.830 · Speaker 3

That would look like?

01:26:29.870 — 01:27:21.970 · Speaker 2

Yeah, it happened to me and I just talked about it on social media. It was several kind of tells for me that that happened, and this is one of the big ones that I kind of didn't realize how big it was until I realized or was looking at Dena McMillan's work. So it's a second date. He lives out of town. First date.

He flew in to see me, and the second day I thought, well, I'll fly to go see him. I clear with him my flight times so he knows when I'm arriving and when I'm leaving. So because he's providing a transportation on the last day, as we're getting ready to deal with saying goodbye soon and I'm going to leave on that departure, he shows up all dressed in team football colors and tells me that he forgot to tell me that he, um.

He has a tickets to go to a professional football team with his son, and that he needs to drop me off at the airport six hours early.

01:27:22.210 — 01:27:22.650 · Speaker 3

Mhm.

01:27:23.250 — 01:28:00.690 · Speaker 2

And but I cleared the times with him. He knew what time I knew. I was sure I did that and he said it was fine. And he never brought it up until that morning. And, and sort of, sort of answered our date in a really weird way that now I'm sitting in the airport for six hours. So here I'm really thinking, did I not communicate directly enough with him?

Maybe I wasn't clear about my plans. I'm like running all these scenarios through and and see but he's seeing what am I going to do with it? Am I going to be outraged? Am I going to make a scene? Am I going to end the relationship over this, or am I going to be a good sport and kind of roll with it, which is what I did?

That was a good thing.

01:28:00.770 — 01:28:01.850 · Speaker 3

Maybe even apologize?

01:28:01.850 — 01:28:05.850 · Speaker 1

Oh gosh, I'm sure I must have somehow messed this up.

01:28:05.890 — 01:29:24.050 · Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but then he throws another thing to really throw me for a loop. He happened to bring roses when he met me at the airport. When I flew in, he. He took those roses, unbeknownst to me, cut the top of the heads off, put them in a big baggie, and said, I was hoping you could dry these and create some support for us so that we could remember our first date.

And I'm thinking, well, that's a super sweet thing. What guy would think of that? And that he would even know that I'm a crafty kind of person, that I might appreciate doing that. And so I was so touched by the thoughtfulness, while I'm also really reeling by the carelessness and the inconsiderate behavior of his.

And then he says to me, I love you. Which again is like, oh no, it's too soon. He shouldn't have said that. But I was already kind of really enamored with him, and I didn't realize that what I just experienced is what Jenny Jung calls as a test and apologize pattern. Jenny Young is a is a rhetorical professor in English, looks at critical discourse, and she says, watch for someone who pushes a boundary and then takes it back and says, so.

Oh, my mistake, my mistake. I'm so sorry. When they do that, what it is, is a test for compliance. And it's a test to see how cooperative you're going to be, how you're going to react in a stressful situation, and whether or not it's the start of if I can push you an inch, then I'm going to later push you a mile.

01:29:24.090 — 01:29:24.610 · Speaker 3

Oh yeah.

01:29:24.650 — 01:29:27.010 · Speaker 1

Inch and an inch and a half and then four inches.

01:29:27.050 — 01:29:28.010 · Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

01:29:28.010 — 01:30:32.150 · Speaker 1

Um, and I think that an important thing to think about is the psychology of a woman in this situation when she knows she sent him the thing. Right. And like, what is psychologically or emotionally going on inside of her to tolerate this behavior. So what I'm thinking about is, um, how, I mean, for my own self, how susceptible I could be to this because I think, especially in my younger years, um, you know, when we're younger women and in our 20s, we're we're still navigating our sense of self-worth, our value, And I think we're taught as women to see our value as measured through the lens of a man's point of view, whether men think we're attractive, whether men think that we're desirable.

And not just physically, but in every single way. So we're still in that push and pull learning moment, and we want to be wanted and we want to be liked. And, you know, some young women who are 23 years old and think they're already behind because they're not already married, you know, depending.

01:30:32.150 — 01:30:33.550 · Speaker 3

On the religious.

01:30:33.550 — 01:31:23.530 · Speaker 1

And otherwise upbringing. And so I think the way it kind of happens is, and I think what these people do is they hone in on someone who maybe has all the reasons in the world to be extremely confident, and maybe they are in certain areas of their life, but that there's this other inner kind of third wall that isn't fully bricked up yet.

The confidence is not fully solid. They're still working on it. They're still living a young person's life. And, you know, you get confidence by doing cool stuff or hard stuff and not dying. Right. So, like, they are, um, still building that up, and then they kind of dive in early before that cemented or bricked up and, and exploit it before the person's fully prepared to deal with it.

I mean, does that resonate? You think that's kind of what's going on a lot of the time.

01:31:23.530 — 01:31:36.610 · Speaker 2

So I think there's something in us that we've been raised, socialized to prioritize relationships over everything, and we don't recognize when we're being asking to betray ourselves or we're starting to self abandon.

01:31:36.850 — 01:31:38.410 · Speaker 3

So if you think just a second.

01:31:38.490 — 01:31:49.690 · Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a word right there that as women we don't realize when we're being asked to self betray like to betray ourselves or to self abandon.

01:31:49.810 — 01:31:50.490 · Speaker 3

Yes.

01:31:50.530 — 01:32:08.950 · Speaker 2

So here I am in that moment. It's the second day. I really want the connection to be preserved. I'm invested. Really invested. Because here's another rule of thumb and it comes out of David Smurf's work. He wrote the book The Passionate Marriage, and in that book he says, the one who's the most invested in the relationship has the least amount of power.

01:32:09.030 — 01:32:10.070 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Of course.

01:32:10.070 — 01:32:43.870 · Speaker 2

So here I'm on the second day. I really want this guy to like me. And if I create the scene and say what? I cleared these times with you, why would you make a buy tickets? Why would you not? If you bought them before, why would you have not told me and I would have adjusted when I left, I could I could have done that then.

But you told me this was going to work. If I do that, I'm threatening the relationship. Yeah, and I don't want to threaten the relationship because then I'm going to be seen. And how much training do we get around this? Be a nice woman. Don't be a bitch. And I know if I start to do that, I'm bitchy.

01:32:44.270 — 01:32:45.990 · Speaker 3

Isn't it? I agree, yeah.

01:32:46.070 — 01:32:47.670 · Speaker 1

This isn't a big deal, right?

01:32:47.710 — 01:32:50.030 · Speaker 3

You're exactly. It's like, well.

01:32:50.030 — 01:33:09.930 · Speaker 2

Why are you making such a big deal of it? It's just a little extra time at the airport. And because we're invested in the relationship and we're feeling another person's lack of investment at the same level of our investment, then we're forced. Do we either preserve the connection with them in that moment, or do we preserve our self dignity?

And we often choose not to preserve our dignity?

01:33:09.970 — 01:33:10.290 · Speaker 3

Yeah.

01:33:10.330 — 01:33:45.570 · Speaker 1

And now listen, where I'm sitting at, 42 years old, lived a minute. Women. My recommendation is that you choose to preserve yourself dignity over the relationship. Every single time. It's like it. Glennon Doyle, in her book untamed, you know, talks about, like, betrayal of self. Yeah. And, um, I just got a chill thinking about it.

Like. And women as we age and there's a lot of conversations about perimenopause and menopause and all that stuff happening. But young ladies, if you're listening to this as we age, this will come for you at some point. Hopefully, if you let it.

01:33:45.610 — 01:33:46.250 · Speaker 3

Where you say.

01:33:46.650 — 01:34:15.429 · Speaker 2

Which is why I think there's a big push lately, it feels like to me anyway. Maybe, maybe it's just that social media is over exaggerating it. But there's a big push about why so many men don't want women whose body counts, and why so many men want lowering the age of of consent, lowering the age of marriage.

Why? Because women that those brackets don't know what we learn through age and experience, which is that unfortunately, the world is not that safe. And there are a lot of people who are going to take what they can get from us.

01:34:15.669 — 01:34:16.750 · Speaker 3

Well, and I think, you.

01:34:16.750 — 01:34:21.070 · Speaker 1

Know, another another way, perhaps not in the same level of grimness, you know.

01:34:21.270 — 01:34:21.950 · Speaker 3

About.

01:34:21.950 — 01:34:24.230 · Speaker 1

Safety. But I do think, I mean, I, I'm not.

01:34:24.230 — 01:34:25.429 · Speaker 3

Seeking to tell what.

01:34:25.470 — 01:34:26.429 · Speaker 2

World I live in.

01:34:26.470 — 01:34:27.510 · Speaker 3

Yeah, right.

01:34:27.669 — 01:35:53.050 · Speaker 1

A little bit more for me, too, is just like that. With age and experience, you start to learn that it's not worth it, that the equation is not worth it, that if you have to betray yourself or abandon yourself to keep a person, that person is not worth keeping. It is much better to be alone than to be in a situation where you have to abandon yourself, because then you're you feel alone, because you're not your full self Yeah.

And you don't have the benefit of being alone and, like, proud of yourself for your behavior. And I think that if I could tell young women anything, it's to try to get to that space faster, um, and not have to get there through the school of hard knocks, like a lot of us did. And, you know, I believe me, gals, at some point in your life down the road, you would love nothing better than a few hours by yourself.

Um, there will be that point where you're trying to get there when you're in your 20s and stuff or in your teens. You may not quite see that, but I think that, you know, doctor, carry something for us to think about is for the women listening who are already in the circumstance, like they can't, um, recognize yet that, like, boundary testing pattern.

That ship has already sailed. They acted like a really great guy. Maybe they got married super quickly. I bet that's something that happens quickly. They want to sign you up before you can figure out who they really are and bail.

01:35:53.170 — 01:35:54.170 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Is that sign.

01:35:54.170 — 01:35:56.830 · Speaker 2

You up, get you on a mortgage or get you pregnant.

01:35:56.950 — 01:35:57.670 · Speaker 3

Yeah.

01:35:57.950 — 01:36:13.350 · Speaker 1

And so they get you sort of locked in. They've won. They've got you where they want you. Um, and and so say that's happened and someone listening to this is like, oh, my God, you're definitely describing my husband.

01:36:13.710 — 01:36:15.270 · Speaker 3

Um, and.

01:36:15.750 — 01:36:33.230 · Speaker 1

I don't know what what to do. Like, what can they do? If they're starting to kind of wake up and see that they're probably married to a narcissist and, and maybe don't want to be. What are some steps they can do to protect themselves or,

01:36:34.350 — 01:36:38.750 · Speaker 1

you know, to to gain the strength and the wherewithal to maybe exit the situation.

01:36:38.910 — 01:37:24.970 · Speaker 2

So, yeah, it really depends on the stage that you're at. And so let's kind of break it down by stage. Maybe you're listening to the two of us today and say, oh man, I'm relating heavily with what they're saying. And you're starting to realize maybe something's wrong. You thought it was you. You thought maybe there was just the relationship was struggling, and you've been feeling really confused about what's going on.

So to me, the confusion is usually a big signal. Something's wrong. If you're feeling like maybe it's me, I'm not normal, but things just don't feel right. Listen to the confusion and then start paying attention and start considering that maybe it does your efforts to save the relationship. Does it create improvement, or is it just brief improvement?

In other words. Are you. Are you with somebody who gives a lot of lip service and there's no follow through?

01:37:25.010 — 01:37:28.010 · Speaker 3

Maybe thinking, well, it looks like, yeah, like a couple.

01:37:28.010 — 01:37:40.410 · Speaker 1

Weeks, 30 days max. And they're right. They do it just enough to appease you, to keep you. And so you won't leave or whatever you're threatening to do. And then a little bit by a little bit, they slip right back into exactly what they were.

01:37:40.450 — 01:38:44.110 · Speaker 2

Exactly. If you're in that stage, then that's the awareness of that is the first step. Become aware of that and then stop putting so much effort in trying to save us and start thinking about how you're going to start to save yourself. So that to me is the first sort of beginning step. The next is, is that you have to get strategic about how you're going to save yourself.

And there's kind of levels of approaching it. One is what happens to your sense of self because this is a person you've prioritized. You have been walking on eggshells trying to keep the conflict low, trying to keep the peace in the house. You have been bending over backwards, probably doing way the huge amount of the emotional labor, maybe the actual labor in this house, and it's costing you a whole lot because it's coming.

Because to say no to this person causes problems. And so you're recognizing this is a really been A11 sided relationship, and you're given out and burning up so that at that stage, then the effort then becomes, how do you then start to emotionally detach so that their opinion matters less so.

01:38:44.150 — 01:38:44.950 · Speaker 3

That you hang on. Right.

01:38:44.950 — 01:38:45.950 · Speaker 2

This rescuing.

01:38:45.990 — 01:40:01.870 · Speaker 1

Yeah. So start to emotionally detach Where their opinion matters less, I think that that I'm just going to like, say on that one. I think that's a really big deal. I see this in women. It's I call it when there give a damn gets busted. And it's sort of like your hopping to and jumping to. And when they say jump how high like they're mad.

So you act differently, they're angry or they're frustrated or they're hungry or whatever. And so you change your behavior because you become, I think, with these people in sort of an enmeshed way, and you, you manage your life based on their mood or what's going to set them off or get them mad again. And so I think it's important to consider, um, taking that space.

Now, in my experience, when you do that and you create that space. The other person, though is going to notice. They're going to know you're doing it because they're they like feed on your rising and falling for what they need, want. Care about, etc.. Look, how does that work when you start to emotionally detach and and not get so flustered at or so?

Um, I don't know. Ebb and flow based on how they feel.

01:40:01.910 — 01:40:03.710 · Speaker 3

Yeah. Won't they know?

01:40:03.830 — 01:41:16.970 · Speaker 2

So some some will step it up because they sense you're slipping. And so they'll start to suggest like, well, maybe go to couples therapy, or they'll start to show in a way that everything that you've ever wished for, they start to do. Remind yourself, though they've always known that you wanted, that. It's only now that they're afraid of losing you that they're doing it.

So it's it's a form of manipulation, which is really hard because we're hungering for it. So when we see it, we're like, oh, they they care. They're invested. They're trying. No, they're they're feeling the loss of control. It's not about the loss of connection a loss of control. So they're now giving you the very things that they know that you've always wanted, but they've not done because you didn't matter enough.

But there's another group, though that will get bored. And then it'll start to drift because you're not giving the supply. You're not being so careful. You're not being so. So, um, admiring and over the top, giving all the attention that you used to do. That group may start to cheat more, you know, start to be work longer, hang out with their friends, do more.

Going out more with go to be up with the buddies. So you may see some some group will actually start to discard you because you're not you're not fulfilling their needs in the way that you used to. And then the last group though is they may get violent.

01:41:17.010 — 01:41:19.770 · Speaker 3

Oh guys, pause on that one for a second. And the other group?

01:41:20.170 — 01:42:21.830 · Speaker 1

Um, that feeling of rejection, uh, when they start doing all this other stuff, may also make you, as a woman, lean in to try to fix it and make things better. Um, make yourself more desirable. If only I were skinny. Or if only I. I shouldn't nag him all the time when he comes home, etc. and that trigger of rejection and maybe tapping into dad wounds or, you know, different things we've all got may make you lean in and then start the cycle all over again, where then you're you're coming to them, and then they have the control again, and then you're kind of back at square one.

They're having to come back to awareness before you go through all these cycles, because it seems to me that relationships likely progress through each of those stages at different points. Right? Like, and maybe not all the way to them withdrawing. Um, and certainly not always into physical violence.

Um, but but is that a thing that happens that this cycles through until, I guess eventually you break the cycle?

01:42:21.950 — 01:44:39.070 · Speaker 2

It does. It does with what Doctor Romine calls the breaking shelf moment. So I really want to stress I love the fact that you brought that up. I want to stress that you getting pulled back in, see it as a test. You're you're identifying the patterns. If you can have a part of yourself sort of stand outside and say, did I do this before?

And what happened? Oh, I'm doing it again. Is the same outcome going to happen again? So to notice the pattern. And that way it can give you more insight because, you know, it takes upwards to seven or more times to get out of these relationships. And the reason is because they're so good at keeping us in the relationship, because just about the time that you feel like you're waking up and getting clarity, they do something that's so surprising, so over the top that you think, oh no, I don't.

Maybe it isn't that bad. Let me give you a really powerful example of how it happened to me. Mine was a cheater. He was actually a sex addict, really into all sorts of nasty stuff. I thought he was doing better. He looked like he was working so called the sex addiction program. I didn't realize that he was just all a scam.

He really wasn't. But but I catch that he's doing enough stuff that he shouldn't be doing, that we decide to go back and ask for some intensive help. We go back to the. I had gotten him into an intensive outpatient experience to sort of help us get out of this crisis and put us on the right direction. And part of that expectation was if he fell off the wagon, he was going to have to take a polygraph.

So we're gearing up to do this. What happens in sex addiction treatment to take a polygraph? And I don't know if this is standard or not, but the the person that we were working with always made me have to tell him the questions ahead before he took the test. And one of the questions I knew he didn't want me to ask is it was a very big question.

It is probably actually the truth, which is why it was so loaded. I knew it would enrage him to ask him. And I was scared, very scared to tell him this question. And that was, did you marry me for the money? Because I had come into life insurance from the from the estate of my deceased husband. He was. This is my second marriage.

So I was widowed before, and there was a big question of whether or not this guy was only in a relationship with me because he'd wanted access to the life insurance. So that was one of the questions I asked him. And then while we're waiting for the polygraph to get set up, he and I had to be in a waiting room together after I already told him the questions.

01:44:39.210 — 01:44:39.650 · Speaker 3

He's.

01:44:39.650 — 01:46:35.610 · Speaker 2

Enraged. I'm scared. I realize I'm going to have to go home with this guy. What's going to happen? And he's so angry that he starts pulling out all the credit cards. Because I happen to own the business. It's a very complicated situation, but I happen to be the one. Because of the money I had, the power around money.

I had the financial control. He's pulling all the credit cards that are essentially part of the company. He and I are running, and he hands them to me and says, I won't be needing these anymore, saying, essentially, we're over. He's so enraged that we're over. So he goes in, he takes the test, he passes, he passes that question.

And I'm not for sure what's going to happen. I know he's still furious with me. We get in the car and I'm waiting for the, you know, the boom to lower on me and maybe for the first time, for him to become really violent with me or something. And he pauses and he says quietly, I just realized something, that how I'm feeling right now is probably how I've been making you feel in this relationship and I was floored.

The insight into that was profound and it was how it was making me feel. I was feeling very angry about all the the cheating and the acting out, and I just burst into tears because I was so touched that he would get it and put it together. I now know what really happened was he realized he didn't have his ducks on the row.

He didn't want me to go back and start doing all this maneuvering financially, legally, to get him out and end things with him. He didn't. He wasn't ready for that. So he said this to keep me in the relationship. So I'm saying all that to say is that watch out for that. Now. It did pull me back in. I got reinvested again.

But keep a part of yourself one step out enough that you can say, oh, this happened before and this is what I did. But then this got bad again, which it did get bad again really fast in our relationship. So pay attention to that and learn from that instead of seeing it as failure. See it as practice and learning.

01:46:35.770 — 01:49:10.650 · Speaker 1

Yeah. You know, one of the things I've seen in an experience in my own life, too, was like wanting somebody to, you know, become like a good, God fearing man. Going to church. You know, being around people. Like having that be the environment and doing that for a minute. Um, even like quoting Bible verses.

Um, at the time of the divorce. Like, wait, since when are we doing that? Right? Trying to be that person and do that thing and to pull on your heartstrings and all of that? Um, in my situation was way too little, way too late. Um, but I think that, ladies, if you know, be prepared. Well, one of the ways I talk about it is when you pull your power back, when you call your power back, there will be gnawing and gnashing of teeth.

The people who benefited from you abdicating and giving away your power will freak the fuck out. And they will basically do. If they're in this kind of situation, whatever it takes to pull that power back, to get that benefit back, to continue to get high off your supply. And that can look like finally saying the thing you wish they'd say.

Finally going with you to church, promising they'll stop drinking, deleting all the apps off their phone, whatever the thing is that you really wanted. And so I think as you're talking, what I was thinking about is telling women to get the data. And if you suspect if if some little part of you ladies is listening to us and is like, oh, honey Clinch, oh, God, I thought he was just kind of going through a rough time or just kind of a jerk, or that's just how he is.

But wait a minute. There may be a clinical thing going on because you heard what Doctor Kerry said. These people really can't change. Uh, or they won't change. I mean, we can say unless there's this one unicorn situation and I can pretty much guarantee the dude you're married to is not the unicorn. Yes, that the way to arm yourself is with information.

Get you a journal that he doesn't know about, or a note on your phone title at grocery list in case he gets in your phone, put a bunch of shit, and then at the bottom, track the date, what happened, how it made you feel. And do that. Don't even go back and read it, but do it when it happens in the moment of how you're feeling, so that if it's been six months, it's been a year or two years, you can look back and say, oh, this is exactly what happened before.

This is a pattern. This is a behavior. Because let me just say this.

01:49:11.810 — 01:53:09.660 · Speaker 1

My belief is that you deserve to have a happy life. Whoever you are listening to this, you are worthy of a good life simply because you exist. And marriage is a big component that a lot of us choose in life, and you deserve for your marriage to augment, to improve, to make your life better. There is no trophy and in fact it's like anti trophy, right to staying in a shitty situation and they'll manipulate you and talk about your vows and talk about it.

Makes you a bad person if you want to get divorced or whatever. And kids is a whole different thing. Um, but they're using those tools to win. You've heard they're using those tools, and the point of being married, in my opinion, is to make your life better, make you a better person, make you have a more fulfilling, enjoyable, fun, happy life.

And if your marriage isn't doing that and you're constantly in the place of trying to make things better, go into all the intensive therapies in the universe. Trying to help fix this guy. Trying to help love him into a different way of being. Trying to contort and pretzel yourself into some existence to better suit his mood, and you're always worried about making them feel better.

I'd have to say, listen, ladies, you deserve better than that. And like, I think a lot of us stay in that cycle because it's hard to face the truth. Like, if you're not willing to face it, you can't fix it. Like, if you're not willing to face the reality of the circumstances that you're in, then we're not going to be able to improve them.

And like a lot of us, I think, stay in these relationships because we've got little kids and we don't want to put them through. We're worried about what he will do when you're not around, etc. I'm not saying that those concerns are not valid. And I'm talking to you, the mama, the woman who had these children.

And I think it's a mistake to think that staying in these relationships, even if leaving, is inconvenient, even if leaving is hard, is somehow better for the kids. That's my personal perspective. It's certainly the perspective I took to leave my marriage, and all the stuff my kids had to go through as a result.

Um, and my perspective professionally as a divorce lawyer in my day job, um, in doing that, there have been longitudinal studies done that. It's not the divorce that impacts the kids. Is that like the chaos and the conflict afterwards? But here's the bad news. These sorts of people are the sort of people who will continue the conflict in the chaos after it's over.

I already I mean, that's a fact. So you're right to be nervous about how this is going to play out once you're no longer in the marriage, that it's going to be hard on the kids, that there's going to be ongoing conflict. Yeah, that's what's going to happen. And yet you can have it within the marriage where you're stuck and you don't have any freedom, and you betray yourself every day just to get by, and you're walking on eggshells and you can't even load the dishwasher, right?

Um, and have nothing to show for it. And there's conflict in your home, and your kids are suffering because they're watching that, and you're teaching them through your tacit consent that it's okay to be in this kind of relationship because they watch that they're learning how to to be treated and how to treat, depending on, you know, how they fall in that.

Um, or you can be on the other side of this relationship, get out of it, have some freedom, have some ability to heal and make different choices. And you still deal with some conflicts, but you, as the person can take a stand for yourself and for your kids and for your self betrayal. Um, but that's just the thing I think we have to think through.

We got ourselves ultimately into these pickles, ladies. Like one way or the other. And I'm not trying to say that it was, um,

01:53:10.860 — 01:53:42.680 · Speaker 1

simple and but what we continue to stay, right? I mean, we did. And so now we got to be the ones to get ourselves out. There's no one coming to rescue us. Um, and I think that we can do that by being aware of these signs and the things that can happen. Um, but the thing I hear so many women say is they stayed in this shitty marriage to this narcissist for the kids.

But, Carrie, is that right? I mean, is staying in it for the kids better for the kids long term, do you think?

01:53:42.720 — 01:53:46.360 · Speaker 2

No, because what they're getting is they're just getting a dysregulated mom.

01:53:46.960 — 01:53:47.400 · Speaker 1

Mhm.

01:53:47.600 — 01:54:47.220 · Speaker 2

Say more. You're not you're not actually able to be your full self full functioning emotional self because you're in a state of a fight or flight because you're trying to cope with a situation that feels inherently psychologically difficult, a difficult or dangerous. And as a result, you're constantly armored up trying to keep things smooth and peaceful as possible.

You're not really your most expansive, full self. Your kids are not getting to live with a mom who can be in touch with herself and really show up in the way that she wants. They're getting a mom who's compromised all the time. compromised and being exhausted and and burdened because of this relationship.

Now the studies confirm with what you say is that it's not to. You know, we end up thinking, yeah, but at least then they're not 50% of the time with this person who I don't even trust and don't want to alone with them. Yeah, but they won't get you any of the time as your full functioning self, because you're so much in survival mode that you can't be a healthy, functioning self.

01:54:47.220 — 01:55:19.800 · Speaker 1

It's a tough spot. There are no easy answers because when you're not there, um, they that you're not there to be the go between and put yourself as the shield between him and the kids. And I guess what I'm saying is, I don't believe is your requirement to be a good mother, to stay and be the human shield between these two.

And you're not doing it. You're not shielding them. You're in fact, um, showing that you're you're willing to tolerate this. And by voting with your feet, continuing to stay in it.

01:55:19.840 — 01:55:30.080 · Speaker 2

Yeah, in some kids will walk away angry and they will know that in at some level that you stayed and that they'll see that as collusion and feel betrayed by you.

01:55:30.200 — 01:55:42.999 · Speaker 1

This is a tough topic, y'all. Um, if if this is something that has touched your life or is is touching your life, I want you to know, like I see you, I feel that I understand

01:55:44.240 — 01:56:09.560 · Speaker 1

intimately. Um, and there is another side of this. There is a place where you can heal from this and not be in that situation again. There'll be a place where now you look back and you're like, I cannot believe the bullshit that I put up with. Now, I wouldn't even say yes to the first date, let alone let him do.

You can get to that.

01:56:09.600 — 01:56:13.920 · Speaker 2

I wouldn't even I wouldn't even swipe right on the profile. Yeah, now I know.

01:56:14.120 — 02:00:58.940 · Speaker 1

Right. But some we chose from a different place then and and what's on the other side of this is the ability to build back better, to heal, to not pick from the same place you picked in the first place. To not be in a place of need. And it's hard. You know, there's both the legal aspect and the psychological emotional aspect.

And so really the legal part is just how we get you to. I can get you to Voorst. That can occur. You have to get you there from an emotional and psychological spot. And I think, um, talking with therapists like Doctor Kerry and others who are steeped in this kind of thing because so much of it like if you try to explain this to someone who doesn't understand it or hasn't been in it, they're going to be like, that wasn't that big of a deal.

It wasn't that big of a deal that he did this thing or said this thing, or talk to you like that, or said that to the teacher in front of you or trying to explain to them, well, he he acted like I was kind of an idiot. I'm like, well, you're not. You're really smart. I know, but it's like that. I would forget something made me stupid, or my kids think that I'm an idiot or like, oh well, mom, she can't remember anything when it's just sort of one of the parts of you you're very smart in a lot of other areas, and sometimes you leave stuff behind because you're busy.

And rather than approaching that with understanding and support as a good partner would, instead they use it as a weapon to keep you smaller and to keep you like a caged bird. Right. Like Maya Angelou, I know why Caged Bird sings. So I, I think talking with someone who understands it because I've been a position a lot of times where it's like trying to explain to someone how the situation was, and it's like, I don't quite even know how to convey it all to you.

Um, so there's hope. Um, I think be careful using this word. I'll just. My little my little warning. Be careful using the word narcissist when you go into divorce lawyers offices. This is my little soapbox for a second because so many people misuse the word. Uh, Doctor Kerry told you all about the DSM, which is like the fancy medical book that you have to meet certain qualifications to be, like, truly qualified as a narcissist.

Because what happens is, is divorce lawyers. For a while this has been such a buzzword. And so women will come in saying, this person's a narcissist when really they're describing someone who's an asshole and like, kind of a jerk. And yeah, you should definitely divorce that person, but they're not like meeting the qualifications of the DSM.

They're just a jerk. And also they will sort of you can get pegged as one of those women. And I'm using quotes, those women who thinks, oh, they're spouses of narcissists and like automatically you walk in to some bias and some, um, unwillingness to really like, see through what's going on because, like, just lumping you in with everybody else.

So my recommendation would be if you are thinking about getting divorced, you don't go in swinging the narcissist word around. You can go in and say, look, um, it's been a difficult situation. Here are some of the things that have happened. Here are some of my concerns. And let your lawyer or the mental health professionals in your case make that conclusion more than likely.

Most of y'all are not qualified to make this diagnosis right. I'm certainly not. Um, and and I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever. So I would just recommend proceeding with caution if you're going to get divorced. And it doesn't mean that your experience isn't valid. It doesn't mean that this hasn't happened to you, but that label in your divorce really won't do all that much for you.

I'll be honest with you, because the courts are like, okay, yeah. So what they're focused on is this person like a physical danger to the kids? Some courts get it. Some courts will understand that they can be an emotional danger as a narcissist. But a lot of this, y'all can backfire on you because these people are manipulative.

They can be really charming. They can appear how they want to appear, and they can then boomerang this on you. And they'll try this to say that you're the narcissist. You're the self-centered one. Um, and they're good at trying to point to things that would show that. So. Doctor Carey, I feel like we could talk about this for at least 14 more episodes.

Um, but, you know, I think we're pretty pretty far on time. I have no idea. Um, but one of a couple things we like to ask every guest who comes on is, you know, when you heard the title of this podcast, not saving it for later. For a lot of people, it evokes sort of a response or makes them think of something they say for later.

Anything for you come up.

02:00:59.020 — 02:02:07.620 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, yeah, because I'm widowed. So I was in a marriage, a long term marriage, over 31 years to somebody. And we got a terminal diagnosis of cancer day after Christmas, and he was gone five and a half months later and we didn't know he was sick. He didn't show any symptoms of being ill before he suddenly was very, very ill, life threateningly ill.

And he and I were heading towards the end of a, you know, nearing retirement. We're starting to build a new house. Our last kid was about ready to leave for college, and we'd been saving for the best time of our lives for that period of time, not knowing that it was never going to come. So it really shifted the way in which I view life.

I don't live for the future anymore. I live for the present moment because that's all we actually have. It really taught me the power of the present moment, and I realized now that we need to embrace each moment fully and see them almost as precious and enjoy them, and then see that as life is a string of these precious moments, like pearls strung together on a necklace.

And then we need to really savor every moment, move from moment to moment instead of living for tomorrow.

02:02:07.820 — 02:02:37.780 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Like, even as you said it, I took a deep breath in and just dropped in to this moment, this conversation, all the other things swirling in my mind of all the things I got to do this weekend. Let them come and enjoy them all. Um, another question for you. We like to talk about our dominant thought.

Usually I found that most people have one thing their brains kind of chewing on and working on. Um, for, I don't know, a week or so at a time. Have you been having a dominant thought lately?

02:02:37.820 — 02:03:00.060 · Speaker 2

Uh, not. Not so much. I mean, I'm always trying, you know, the the outcome of trauma on the body is really rough. It causes chronic inflammation, which, as you get older, turns into chronic pain. So mine has been probably my dominant thought is how does this stay active and preserve my health and be the best that I can be and get it back into a safer sense of self?

02:03:00.060 — 02:03:33.520 · Speaker 1

My dominant thought? Um. Not really. I mean, that is a good one. I've been thinking a lot about AI, and how that's changing the world with these agents and bots and all the things that are coming and the pervasiveness of that and how to lead. Um, my law firm and my, my own life, um, in this new reality with everything that's coming.

So that's enough to keep you up at night. Yeah. Um, last question, Doctor Carey. If you could only give one piece of advice to the women of divorced land, what would you tell them?

02:03:33.760 — 02:03:45.400 · Speaker 2

I this is something that I had learned from that second relationship, and that is, um. It's not that I'm okay because we're okay. It's that we're okay because I'm okay.

02:03:45.760 — 02:03:46.200 · Speaker 1

Um.

02:03:47.400 — 02:03:57.280 · Speaker 2

So if you're not okay in this relationship, then the relationships are not okay. And that really shifts shift the focus. I needed to shift the focus.

02:03:57.320 — 02:04:06.060 · Speaker 1

Yeah. From this other external, um, trying to get that to a peaceful point and then I can live my life, but.

02:04:06.180 — 02:04:13.580 · Speaker 2

Then I'm safe because it's peaceful. I'm safe. No, no, no, it's safe because you're safe. That's what makes it a good relationship, right?

02:04:13.620 — 02:05:52.640 · Speaker 1

And that inner brokenness, your inner okay with you, your inner state of peace being the barometer and that that flip. I think we can get there in time. Some of us learn the hard way. Um, I definitely learned that the hard way. And it's not always easy, even though I'm in a happy, wonderful marriage now. Um, I've I've still learned this lesson all the time that like, hey, sometimes I'll have a feeling and how drew feels or what he's doing on his end.

That's his side of the table. I can't control that. I have to be to thine own self be true right to my own self. And I mean, I was just thinking I give a lot of advice to the women of divorce land. But one of those things I would say, and that I was thinking of in this episode, y'all, is to thine own self be true. Yeah.

And listening to that still small voice inside. And if something in you says, I don't think this is okay. I think I deserve to be treated better. I don't think everything should be so hard. I don't think my life should feel like I'm always coming from behind. That no matter what I do, the best I can hope for is neutral.

Let alone wonderful, let alone ecstatic. Erotic. Um. Playful. Joyful. Delightful. All of those things are on the menu for you ladies. I want that for you. That's, um. I guess what this show is ultimately about is helping us all to get to the other side of it, and to say that the way out into that is through your own heart and to thine own self be true.

Sergeant Carey, thank you so much for having this conversation. I have loved it. We could talk about this forever and we'll have to. We'll have to do it again.

02:05:52.680 — 02:05:55.320 · Speaker 2

I would love that. That would be wonderful. Thank you so much.

02:05:55.320 — 02:05:56.120 · Speaker 1

Thanks.