00:00:00.080 — 00:01:20.000 · Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to Not Saving It for later. I'm your host, Hannah Hanbury Bell, where we guide women through divorce and beyond. Let's be honest, most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown. Later when the timing's right. Later when you finally stop caring what they think.

Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Hembree Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage. This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. The place where we stop whispering about what's hard and start talking about what's real.

Marriage, divorce, money, motherhood, faith, sex. Power. No filters, no fake empowerment BS, just straight talk and practical truth for women who are done. Pretending that everything's fine because your next chapter isn't waiting on permission. And neither are we. I'm here today with my good friend Holly J.

Moore. You always use your middle initial, so I'm going to use it to Holly J. Moore. It gives it an air of formality or something. Who is a

00:01:21.080 — 00:02:30.600 · Speaker 1

divorce family lawyer in California who is as much fun as she is good in the courtroom. And that's really saying something. She is the queen of dressing in high fashion. Like for me, over the top amazingness. Like it's going to have a Gucci something on it or even, I don't know, sparkles, pink, lots of like black and shiny amazingness.

Like she's this friend anywhere you show up. You're like, okay, what are you wearing? So that I can like Norm against that? Like, are we wearing. We're not really just probably wearing jeans and a t shirt, although I've seen some on our socials, like on the weekend with kids and stuff anyway, so that's just giving you a picture in case you're just listening to who I'm talking to.

And Holly also is the host of a super successful podcast called made for more. And I've been watching and following along from that and it makes me giggle. She has the best giggle ever. Um, and it makes me giggle every time I see it, and also learn so many things from her each time. And, uh, Holly, I don't know how did I do?

Is there a bunch of stuff I forgot? Of all of your. Great. You did great. Hannah, thank you.

00:02:30.600 — 00:02:35.240 · Speaker 2

So much for having me. And I love that you call it a giggle, because most people call it a cackle.

00:02:36.560 — 00:02:42.640 · Speaker 1

I guess I've got I've got a cackle slash giggle myself if I'm really laughing. So I feel that one.

00:02:42.680 — 00:02:53.320 · Speaker 2

Yeah, but yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm. Congratulations on this podcast. I love the concept and you're an amazing host, so I'm so happy to be here.

00:02:53.360 — 00:04:06.440 · Speaker 1

Oh, awesome. Well, and whenever I was thinking about all the things that we could talk about. Holly, I mean, my brain was just like a million things because Holly and I could sit here and just chat and catch up about anything. But, you know, I think the thing that stood out to me most is Holly. You represent a lot of high net worth, even celebrity divorces in California, and also work with a lot of men.

And so, like those two things, when I think about you as a divorce lawyer stood out to me. And they're they're a lot different from my experience. I mean, we we at Henry Bell in in Austin, we represent about equal men and women. This show is directed towards women in my work, in my confident divorce. And the circle is directed towards women.

But, you know, that vantage point is a little different. And I've worked with um, some like higher, higher, not fame I guess, or whatever, but like well-known influencer sorts, but never any all the way to celebrities. In fact, I've had a couple consults like that and I was like, ah, I don't know, because I think for us as lawyers, um, there's a lot that goes with that.

I know, Holly, I don't know if we want to talk about that part of what you've kind of experienced, too. Um, but let's talk about.

00:04:06.480 — 00:04:07.280 · Speaker 2

Anything you want.

00:04:07.320 — 00:04:38.120 · Speaker 1

Okay. I was like, all right, because I think I just was thinking of that. But let's start with, like, let's zoom out because the people listening to the show, um, are here because they are either thinking about in the middle of or going through divorce. And and when I got divorced about ten years ago, there weren't podcasts about it.

Social media was still just like you had Facebook with people from college, pretty much. Right. And trying to be a place that women can talk about what's happening. Because Holly, I don't you're not divorced, right?

00:04:38.160 — 00:04:40.280 · Speaker 2

Correct. Never been divorced.

00:04:40.320 — 00:04:42.440 · Speaker 1

Okay. Yeah. Smart. Smart.

00:04:42.720 — 00:04:44.320 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Knock on wood. Not yet.

00:04:44.720 — 00:04:46.840 · Speaker 1

And not. Not as of, uh.

00:04:46.880 — 00:04:47.640 · Speaker 2

Not today.

00:04:47.680 — 00:06:05.830 · Speaker 1

Not today. Right. Um, but, you know, in dealing with Your practice and the different kinds of clients that you've represented. I know a lot of men, a lot of dads in high asset situations and sometimes celebrity situations. I thought you could be a great person to share with us. Sort of the difference that you see broadly across the board in the way that men, generally speaking, approach divorce and the way that women, generally speaking, approach divorce understanding.

Okay. Disclaimer everyone who's listening. Every family law case is different. And it's also true that across a long period of time, there are these tropes, right? There are these certain kinds of people who show up in our offices over and over and over again, like the my husband is a narcissist. If you only knew him gal, the guy who's like, I never loved her anyway, Pam at the office makes me feel like I've never felt before, right?

So we've got these different tropes. So Holly, with all that kind of disclaimer up front. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, what these women listening can learn and like how they might emulate some of the stuff to that, that the guys do? Like, how do we approach this differently?

00:06:05.990 — 00:09:05.150 · Speaker 2

Yes, absolutely. So, you know, I, I mean, it goes back to sort of the most basic, um, core of men and of women. You know, men are just generally less emotional about things and generally approach things with more logic and pragmatism. And, you know, going through a divorce generally is is not much different.

They're just able to better approach it with logic and look at the facts, look at the numbers and sort of, you know, they approach it with a sense of reason, um, that us as women have a harder time with. We get more emotionally involved in it. Um, but, you know, it wasn't always this way. Hannah. I used to represent, like, mostly women.

And I will tell you, at the beginning of my career, I didn't intend for that. But at the beginning of my career, you know, obviously, like, I'm a woman, I'm a female. And I had young kids. And so I must have just, like, attracted a lot of other young moms. And what frustrated me. And, and over time, I ended up sort of evolving into representing more men was, um, the women always even in divorce after divorce, they're no longer a family unit.

They're no longer, you know, a couple. Like, they just wanted to rely on the men so much for for everything, you know, for financial support for all this type, the various types of support. And it it got frustrating to me over time because I'm, I'm like, you have so much potential. You're so amazing. You have these gifts.

You have these talents. you have these skills and you don't want to put them to use. You would rather sort of rely on the man for financial support, like you would rather spend your time calling me wondering where the support check is rather than going out and like living up to your highest potential. And so I think kind of circling back to your question of like, what can we learn?

You know, one of the biggest things is like men tend to be, statistically speaking, more, more the breadwinner of the family. But because of that, like, they just know they have this responsibility to provide for themselves and for the family and like ultimately for another family, if they're if they have a support obligation.

And so I just feel like if women could just harness their potential more and, and their unique, you know, skills, gifts and talents to, to not have to rely on someone else, I feel so strongly that they would be happier. They would have a much higher sense of self-worth. They would gain a lot more confidence and like That that that was and is my passion.

But they wouldn't just listen to me as their attorney. So I had to go and represent the other side and sort of like force them into that situation where it's like, no, you have to you have to use everything God gave you to be self-reliant. So that would be one of the biggest things that I would tell women is like, harness your power.

00:09:05.590 — 00:10:01.710 · Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think, you know, you practice in California and I practice in Texas, and the way our states treat support is very, very different. Right. Like in Texas, I don't I think our experience will be different in this regard because and depending on where you're listening to your listener, your state might be treating it very differently.

So maybe you could give just a brief summary about that Holly bit. Like in Texas, for instance. Um, you can only get spousal maintenance. So like support beyond the marriage by law, if you've been married like ten years or more and certain factors apply and you can't otherwise meet your minimum reasonable needs, then you can apply.

Not unless it's domestic violence or special needs and stuff like that. So there's this presumption against the spouse. With the more money supporting the other spouse for any kind of long term, and even once you can get it, it's for a limited duration of only a few years. Like, is that how it works in California or it's not in.

00:10:01.710 — 00:10:07.070 · Speaker 2

Any of my clients are listening to this. They are going to pick up and move to Texas right away.

00:10:07.110 — 00:10:10.470 · Speaker 1

They they might consider it nice because.

00:10:10.470 — 00:11:39.910 · Speaker 2

No, that's that's extremely different than in California. Um, I think this is true. But like, don't quote me like true, true. But I'm pretty sure California if you are an obligor, if you are a payer of support, California would be the absolute worst state you could possibly live in and get a divorce. Because in terms of what we call spousal support, other people call alimony.

I think you call it spousal maintenance. Yeah. Um, all kind of referring to the same concept where one spouse has to give a check to the other spouse may have to give a check to the other spouse on a monthly basis. So in California, if it's a short term marriage, which is anything under ten years, you're looking at basically probably having to do that if you earn more than the spouse, um, for half the length of the marriage.

So if you're married for nine years, you're going to be doing that for four and a half years. And the ratios are pretty high. Like, most people are like, how could this number be possible? I don't I don't like when I get my net check. It's there's nothing left, you know, after I pay that like the ratios are very high.

If it's a marriage of over ten years, we consider that a long term marriage in California. And unless you agree to something else, you're going to walk out of court with an order that says you're paying that amount until death, remarriage or further order of the court. So it feels like forever. And in many cases, it is forever.

It's a long.

00:11:39.910 — 00:13:36.220 · Speaker 1

Day. Okay, so y'all, I think listening to this. It is so interesting to consider Holly's experience. Holly and I both see pretty similarly life. I think it's fair enough to say like, yeah, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Go out there and get them, gal. Also, being fair to all people, we both love men and love women like, you know, supportive and all of those things like positive, upbeat people here.

Also, there's the the amount of time and then there's presumption against it. The time limit is limited. And there's a cap in the code, the family code. There's a cap on how much like $5,000 a month. Um, and it's only, you know, it's based on a percentage and all this. So, like, there's a limit on how long and a limit on how much.

If you go to court now, you can agree outside of court, uh, for whatever you want, pretty much in any state. They'll let you do that. Like about the money part, you can agree to whatever. Um, but so Holly's perspective when we talk with her today, she's in a state where if you're married more than ten years, you have to pay a certain amount of money of your money for the rest of your life.

I can understand having a lot of opinions on whether or not that's fair. And yeah, I could see a temptation if you were the lesser moneyed spouse, if you're maybe in a celebrity situation and they make a good one, good jillion dollars and you've been doing the home and all of that, why would you necessarily go?

I mean, you know, why would you? I'm using quotes. I could see someone thinking, why would I go out there and get, um, get this job and whatever they are, I've been making all this money. They're going to have to pay me. I've been married for 11 years. I made it past the ten. They're going to have to keep paying me, and I can go get my nails done and go to Pilates instead.

So is that kind of like where you came in? Holly of weight. That's kind of not fair. And like, fighting sort of against that. And also with the idea of that way women don't rely on that and go like push them from the nest. Is that the thinking?

00:13:36.220 — 00:13:40.140 · Speaker 2

So it's actually so much deeper for me than.

00:13:40.220 — 00:13:40.340 · Speaker 1

Tell.

00:13:40.340 — 00:13:41.820 · Speaker 2

Me, tell me, tell me what? It's not.

00:13:41.980 — 00:13:43.220 · Speaker 1

Okay. Tell me, tell me, tell me.

00:13:43.260 — 00:13:59.060 · Speaker 2

Because, you know, I mean, I've never actually lived like the Pilates, you know, latte brunch life, if I'm being honest. But. But what I can tell you is, in my opinion, in my worldview,

00:14:00.260 — 00:14:47.780 · Speaker 2

we get our confidence and we get our self-worth from doing things that are hard and from doing things that are challenging, and from overcoming things and from being of service to other people and to society and all of those things. And so, yes, on the surface level, maybe that's not super fair. You know, I've got clients that are paying $80,000 a month, $150,000 a month.

And, and, you know, their spouse can live that Pilates life. And, you know, and maybe that's not fair on its on the surface, but for me, the deeper aspect of it is the person that, you know, doesn't have to get up and do anything. They can go to Pilates. They can not go to Pilates. They can. They can do whatever they want.

They don't have to get up and do anything

00:14:49.020 — 00:16:11.460 · Speaker 2

and everything that they used to find purpose in having their, you know, um, having their kid, like being the primary caretaker of their kids all the time. You know, when, when the marriage was intact because husband was working, um, or, you know, or being the wife, taking care of the husband, all of those things now have also been taken away.

So while it might think it sounds amazing to not have to take care of your kids 100 times 100% of the time anymore because they're spending, you know, weekends or weeks at dad's house. Um, and while it might sound nice to not have to take care of a husband anymore and deal with all of his junk, you know, whatever.

You know, all the things that people say. While that might sound nice, you now removed all of your sense of self-worth and and it's hard to get a a new sense of confidence and self-worth from just like going to Pilates every day. So for me, it's more about, okay, what is your purpose separate and apart from your kids and your husband, because that that dynamic no longer exists.

It's changed. It's different. It's not that you're not a mom anymore, but it is that you're not a wife anymore, and you've got to do something else to find that sense of self-worth and to give you confidence and to give you purpose. Otherwise, you turn into a very miserable person. Even though you can go to Pilates every day and drink matcha teas.

00:16:11.660 — 00:16:33.900 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, look, if you think about all of us just for a second, look back in the history of your entire life and the things that you're really proud of and the things that make you feel satisfied and like you were doing something that matters, more than likely, none of it was the most easiest thing ever.

I like

00:16:35.100 — 00:17:41.700 · Speaker 1

both of us putting together a podcast like you over in California. Me over here. It's the best. And I love doing this. And it's not like I look at it and think, oh man, that was so easy, right? So, right. If you look back and think and so if you, you know, I think some I could see the temptation in California to be like, oh, let me get to Easy Street.

But then you find out wherever you go, there you are. And we've talked a lot on the show about the identity shift that happens in divorce, and how I think a lot of us in the marriage that's ending, um, didn't do the work to heal our old patterns and to change our mindset. And so we repeat, we hop into some new thing, and we repeat that same cycle of behavior all over again.

And so, like, if you haven't done the work in whatever was going on in your first marriage, and then all of a sudden you find yourself with $150,000 a month in spousal support in California. Okay, so you don't even have money as a problem anymore. Now what? I mean, because a lot of us.

00:17:41.820 — 00:17:59.300 · Speaker 2

Let me let me just add in, though, if you're getting 150,000 a month in support, you're probably used to a lifestyle that costs you about 400,000 a month. Mhm. So the people that are getting 150,000 a month are still complaining. So let's just be real about that. Yeah.

00:17:59.340 — 00:20:24.330 · Speaker 1

Fair. Well I mean it's all about perspective right. That's going to say for people listening, a lot of them $150,000 might be more than they're making in a year. Absolutely. Um, you know, it's you know, they were making that last year or whatever. So it's all about perspective. You know, usually people spend however much money they got.

But I think that your point is well taken about, you know, however much money is coming in from support and however it's the same lesson we've been talking about this whole time that, ladies, if we don't take the time to face ourselves in the mirror and get real about what's happening there, 150,000, 1.5 million a month, whatever the number is that you're going to be getting, you're going to still be sat with, you know, sitting with yourself after this and like asking those same questions, not feeling happy.

If you're ever looking to someone else, this husband to satisfy you, to make you happy, whatever. When all of that's gone and then you don't have your kids for half the time or so, and all of these other people don't have the status of being his wife anymore and all of that out there. What are you going to be left with?

And I think that people often and I think women to think that getting divorced will it will create a lot of problems, but will at least solve a few. Right? When the people in the in the aftermath who've gone through this, the ones who are thoughtful, will tell you, oh yeah, that's when the real work started of rebuilding my identity because I talk about, you know, Holly the the the quote.

Right. That the, um, the amount which we can grow is directly proportional to the amount of truth we can accept about ourselves without running away. Like, that's the paraphrase Viktor Frankl quote. And I think that what I'm hearing you say is that's the lesson, right? Like, can you face the truth of who you are and the choices that you've made, and maybe you haven't done the things to get the career you haven't, um, done advance that part of yourself in purpose outside of your home so that when that that card from the house of cards is pulled of your wife card and your mom, you know, all the time mom card is pulled, is your house going to collapse?

It's like what you're saying, Judge Judy, have you seen that clip before on social media of Judge Judy talking about how, you know, finances give you options and give you decisions, And a woman needs to have some money in the bank. Have you seen that one?

00:20:24.370 — 00:20:25.090 · Speaker 2

Yep.

00:20:25.290 — 00:20:28.650 · Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think that women

00:20:30.210 — 00:21:02.330 · Speaker 1

and I understand where it comes from. Right. Like, not even that long ago, we couldn't get a mortgage without some man signing off. So it's historical. I think it's lineage stuff. I think it's generational. But we live in a different era now, and we have more, you know, with more information comes more responsibility.

And oh, speaking of, because that's what was making me think is this exact part. What made you decide to start the podcast and start talking to both the men and women about the purpose? Is that where that came from? A little bit.

00:21:02.330 — 00:22:52.130 · Speaker 2

I mean, it was it was sort of multi-dimensional. Um, as I started sort of connecting with really interesting people on Instagram. I was like, I'm learning so much from so many different people. And I have I'm like, so blessed by just like random DM Conversations and their content is really interesting.

And you know, gosh, like. This is really like blessing me so much, if only like other people could have this opportunity as well. And so that's so that kind of like that was what the idea of having a podcast was born out of. But then it's like, okay, what is the theme going to be? And then just thinking about sort of the purpose of my life and my work as a lawyer.

And it is like, yes, we are all made for more, like we all have unique gifts, you know, unique skills, gifts and talents that we've only barely, like reached the surface on. You know, I mean, most of us, it's like we have so much potential that we we don't even know about. We're just barely scratching the surface.

And I think the other thing, too, is I just want to make it so clear, you know, obviously I'm using like, the most extreme examples of support payments per month. You know, everybody's not getting $150,000 a month. A lot of people are getting 2000, 5500. You know, um, but also in thinking about this, like, I don't I mean, maybe 1 or 2, but most of those women are not in that situation out of malice for the husband.

They're not. You know, I mean, maybe they get a little bit of delight about how painful it is for the husband to write that check every month. But I don't believe it's it's evilness or malice or anything like that. I believe it's fear. And that's what.

00:22:52.130 — 00:23:11.250 · Speaker 1

I was going to say. I feel that it's because they're afraid. Like, if I'm not this, what am I? Like, what do you have to say to them? Holly, if someone's listening and it's like, I mean, yeah, you're kind of right. But if I don't have his help, how am I going to pay my bills? What am I going to do? Do I have anything to offer?

I've been raising kids for these years, you know.

00:23:11.290 — 00:24:46.370 · Speaker 2

Yes, yes. And and so to them, I would say like it's never too late to start something I actually did. I had a woman on my podcast, I think, like she wrote a book and it's called Boss Mom. And it's a fascinating, you know, because Hannah, you and I are both really lucky in the fact that, like, even if we decided not to work, we we both have a professional degree that is marketable as lawyers.

But, you know, a lot of people don't have that. And a lot of people don't have, you know, work experience or educational background or any sort of degrees to to be like, okay, well, now I need to go to work. Here's my law degree. I can go and I can make this happen. Like, a lot of people don't have that. But what I was what sort of came to light with that podcast episode that I did is she was like, anyone can have a business nowadays.

Like we are living in a time where literally every single person can own a business without capital, without a law degree, without a college degree. You know what I mean? Like we're living in a time where it's it's relatively speaking, it's easier to make money now than ever. Um, you know, and she, she talked about like, Etsy businesses and social media businesses and all of those types of things that you don't have to have education.

You don't really have to have capital to even start. You don't have to have this massive team, like in your spare bedroom or at your kitchen table. Like, you can do something. And I think it's just really like being resourceful and believing in yourself also that you can do something. Um, that's that's where it starts

00:24:47.730 — 00:24:48.410 · Speaker 2

now.

00:24:48.450 — 00:25:05.690 · Speaker 1

Okay. I mean, I, I agree, I think it's also just us women taking full personal responsibility for our lives. Like the good news and the bad news, the best news and the worst news ever is that your life's all on you. I mean, it's both the best and worst news. Yeah, and I think.

00:25:05.730 — 00:25:07.650 · Speaker 2

It's terrifying and liberating.

00:25:07.690 — 00:25:56.410 · Speaker 1

Yes. Um, Holly and I have learned this lesson alongside each other for years now. And like the issue there is a lot of people don't. Don't fully understand and like own that. And so divorce is one way y'all. Where it can push you into the middle of making that decision, making that call and understanding that life really is on you and it's not going to just happen for you.

You're not going to have this man just doing it for you anymore. I always say divorce can make you bitter or better, and you get to choose. And like, the better part is when you make those decisions and use this as a springboard to create the next part of your life, um, fresh from scratch. It can be such an amazing thing, but it's just because it's amazing doesn't mean that it's not scary and incredibly difficult.

00:25:56.890 — 00:27:00.530 · Speaker 2

I mean, you know, that's that is something that I talk about my podcast a lot, but also in my law firm is like, you know, I have not been divorced. My parents are still married. Like everybody in my inner circle. Like divorce is not really part of my life, but I have experienced death of people that were closest to me.

And so from that, I feel like I can relate to this massive loss. Like you had this whole plan for your life. You thought you were growing old together. You you had a, you know, you're like, okay, this or that and this is going to happen. And, you know, the rug has pulled out from underneath you and you have to figure out how to navigate that.

And very much like you say, Hannah, like, it can make you bitter or better. I mean, it's a fork in the road, and and it can cause you to completely, um, you know, the phrase I use a lot is like, circle the drain. You know, you're just, like, in a downward spiral and you're circling the drain, and it can ruin you.

Or you can make the choice to use all this pain and suffering and incredibly difficult, difficult things to overcome. You can use it to do something extraordinary.

00:27:00.890 — 00:27:40.010 · Speaker 1

Hmm. Well, and okay, so for the women who are like, all right, y'all, I am. I'm in. Yes. Okay. I need to get my shit together. I need to be able to support myself and all of that. Um, can you think of ways you've seen in your practice that men and women prepare for divorce differently? And like some some nuggets, the women can learn from them on the gear up and get ready face like if they think they're going to get divorced in 3 or 6 months from now.

Do you see any difference in the way people show up at your office if they've done any prep work? Or maybe you see it the same that they don't. Neither one of them get ready.

00:27:40.610 — 00:27:43.850 · Speaker 2

So I would actually say women prepare far more.

00:27:44.090 — 00:27:47.450 · Speaker 1

Mhm mhm. Okay. Tell us yay good news. Yeah yeah.

00:27:47.930 — 00:28:49.840 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Um well I mean I think statistically speaking like women will think about a divorce for 3 to 5 years before doing it. And like statistically speaking men think about it between 3 and 6 months. Mhm. Um and in my experience in my firm like I, I, I have found that to be that dynamic, to be true, where women are preparing far more.

And, you know, it could be because they feel like they don't have as much access to resources. And so they're either like squirreling away money during that time or, you know, trying to figure out, like, how what is my life going to look like if I do pull the trigger and, and, you know, decide to dissolve this marriage.

So I do think actually, um, I mean, it shouldn't be a competition, but if we're looking at as, as a competition, women would win on, on the, on the preparation front, I think women. Yeah, they're, they're more thoughtful about about what is my life actually going to look like when, if and when I decide to do this?

00:28:49.880 — 00:29:05.760 · Speaker 1

Well, and 70% of divorces are filed by women. So we know they've at least thought about it sooner because they get to our offices, generally speaking, sooner. Okay. So I guess if yeah, we're going to do ding, the women have the prep the prep version. And I see. You know that even that.

00:29:05.760 — 00:29:06.240 · Speaker 2

Being.

00:29:06.560 — 00:29:45.959 · Speaker 1

I love it the but the the prep part a lot. I mean, I still see a lot of women who come in and they, they spend all their energy deciding to do it and don't have their documents together and financials and, you know, all of that. So I think, yeah, I'm most of them could probably do both during the marriage. I think you said that the big thing to learn is about, you know, keep trying to keep the emotions reined in and approaching the process with logic and reason.

And here are the numbers and it is what it is. Um, as far as during the marriage, can you also talk about like sort of the emotional

00:29:47.000 — 00:30:06.440 · Speaker 1

set point and behaviors that you find, you know, as sort of a warning to people thinking about doing this? Um, for women going in like, hey, whatever you do, don't do this because it's probably not going to go good in your divorce. Like becoming obsessed with revenge, obviously would be one of them. Can you think of that?

00:30:06.560 — 00:30:07.040 · Speaker 2

Yes.

00:30:07.080 — 00:30:08.120 · Speaker 1

You've seen.

00:30:09.240 — 00:32:22.840 · Speaker 2

Yes. I mean, I you know, I think it's so it's so much easier said than done. I mean, yes, it's easy for me to get to give lip service and say, well, men are so much more, you know, factual and logical and pragmatic, and that is how you should all be women. Like, that's really hard. You know, that's really like, I never want to minimize the fact that, like, this is incredibly emotionally traumatizing.

Um, and it's it's the most, if not one, you know, one of the most, if not the most difficult things I would imagine a person would go through because you have to grieve the loss of the marriage, even if you wanted the divorce, there's still like this grieving that has to happen. And so I don't want to minimize the fact that it's incredibly emotional and, and, you know, emotions are valid and feelings are valid.

Um, but I think sometimes, like when you let the emotions run the show, that's where you get into trouble. Um, I mean, you know, I very often tell my clients, like, you know, you're sending my kid to college right now, right? Like, how about we think about it like, let's send your kids to college? Not my kids to college.

Like, you're paying me so much for these issues that maybe, you know, if you looked at it on a cost benefit analysis, like, what are we doing here? Um, and, and I have that conversation with men and women alike. Um, I think men tend to understand that a little bit more because they're they're not so tied up in the emotion of it or in the revenge of it or the spite.

And I think women need to again, I know it's not easy and, you know, it's it's much easier for me to sit here in the seat that I'm in and say it. But like, the best. Revenge is not getting revenge at all. Like the best, revenge is moving on and living an amazing life after, and then taking this opportunity to redesign your life in the way that you want, and with all the experience and wisdom you have behind you now.

Um, we have to let go of like this desire for spite and revenge and all those things. And I can't remember your question, Anna. Did I even answer? Yeah.

00:32:22.880 — 00:32:52.320 · Speaker 1

No. That's it. Just like the things that like, hey, women, you know, being emotional. Can you think of, like, trying to give them some mornings off? This does not play out well. Like, can you think of specific things like, like don't send uh that you see people do repeatedly like don't send hateful text messages, don't talk ugly to your kids about their new girlfriend or like, can you think of some things that you see women do that's against their own interests because they're acting from an activated place?

00:32:52.360 — 00:35:22.560 · Speaker 2

Don't use the kids as pawns. You know, I mean, when you're mad, at I died like. Don't say he can't see the kids because you're mad at him for some unrelated reason. I mean, and this is a okay, so this is what I see most is, is people using the kids in, in all of this emotional turmoil. But I think a lot of times in, in the moms mind and I'm saying moms, because I see this occur more often with women and moms than I do with dads.

It does happen with males as well, but I see it more often in in women, which is why I'm such a proponent of getting your own thing going on your own career, your own purpose, and all this kind of stuff. Because when your your purpose right now, which let's just say is your kids is threatened because now you're that's not your full time job anymore.

In your mind, you you have to you kind of have to like make it continue to be your full time job because you got to hold on to your purpose like it's a survival instinct. And so because of that, you will do things like say that the kids are not safe with dad and say that dad is doing X, Y, and Z, and that's really bad for the kids.

And you will make things like, what, is he packing in their lunch? Or did the kid go to school with a jacket or without a jacket? You will make those things be so big in your mind, and then you will call your lawyer and you will tell them, these are horrible things. This person is not fit to parent. Let's go to court on this.

And and again, I don't think it's out as malicious intent. I really think those are big things in in your mind at the time because of the dynamics of the situation. So what kind of things could women look out for? I would say, like if you are, if you're feeling reluctant to let the kids be with dad, you know, as much as he wants them to be like, why?

Where is that coming from? Is it truly a safety risk for the kids to be with the person that you chose to have them with, you know, and that you were married to? Like, is that truly a safety risk? Maybe it is. It could be. I'm not discounting that, but I'd say 90% of the time it's not as much of a safety risk as you might think.

It's more of a. Huh? I got a whole I'm. I'm in survival mode here. I got to hold on to my purpose and my identity as a mom, and make sure I can keep the kids with me as much as possible.

00:35:22.600 — 00:35:25.560 · Speaker 1

Before we go any further, let me ask you something.

00:35:25.560 — 00:35:44.439 · Speaker 3

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00:37:17.990 — 00:40:53.350 · Speaker 1

Yeah, and I think it's so interesting just our practice and what we see. You know, I a lot of that I see on the flip side, you know, with dads, with the kids as a pawn or like I don't want to um, or they'll say they want equal time with the kids. And it's really about child support. I mean, there's a lot of great dads mean that, right?

Yes, it goes both ways. But I think, y'all what we can learn is what I summarize is saying keep the main thing the main thing. If you're emailing your lawyer about what the kids ate for lunch, what he packed for the kids in their lunch, then you are not keeping the main thing, the main thing. No judge is going to care whether they had celery sticks or not.

And if it's if you're emailing lawyers back and forth. About one time there was like a cheerleading uniform, I remember, and it was like, y'all, you've already paid for this cheerleading uniform three times over at this point. Um, so keeping the main thing, the main thing and then the way I talk about it in the my confident divorce course is like, um, develop your one question, the one question by which you can make every decision in your divorce.

And that question is essentially, will this action get me closer to or farther away from the life I've envisioned for myself after divorce? Will sending this message about whether or not the child had celery in their lunch get me closer to this life that's joyous and positive and happy, and I've moved on and or farther away.

And then if it's farther away, then let's not do that thing right. And having that and one way I think they can do that. So it's like, okay, here's all the things not to do. But then they're like, Hannah, Holly, you two gals like that's real hard. Like, what do I do? I mean, I think the best, most distilled way I can explain it because I am divorced, I've been through a whole thing.

I've been dealing with this for a decade and is to send no messages and do nothing when you're activated. And I've learned that word in recent years. That's it's like both super positive, super negative in any way, really. It feels great to feel good. But what I've sort of learned is like what goes up must come down.

There's like this yin and yang to the whole thing. So in some ways, what I'm really trying to achieve is a neutral state where I am content with my being and who I am, and not looking for something else to give me dopamine or bring me up, or obviously to stay away from things that bring me down. So like, can you put a boundary on yourself of at least 24 hours before you send any non-emergency messages.

Can you give yourself a business day before you respond or send that message? Put it in your drafts. Hopefully you're using our family Wizard, which is like our preferred. Most loved. Yeah. Um. App. Right. So if you're using our family wizard, you're going to put it in the drafts and wait and say nothing in activation.

And I think if you just did that one thing, you would save yourself so much heartache and money and fight and resources in every sense of the word psychological, emotional, financial, like everything else. So maybe that's a way Holly too, of just like the practical tool for actually managing those emotions, I think.

Yes, getting your purpose, getting something outside of yourself to um, to to do, but then also within yourself rooting down in your own independent identity. Right. And then putting in a safeguard of never acting or speaking in activation. Like if people just did those few things. I think they would go a long way in minimizing conflict, money and everything else.

00:40:53.470 — 00:41:12.310 · Speaker 2

I totally agree. And I mean, you know, that's yes, you have given a very practical solution to the more sort of, you know, fluffy concept of like, let's not let emotions rule the day here. Um, so yes, I agree. Like when. Yes, activated is a great word.

00:41:12.310 — 00:41:57.950 · Speaker 1

And people say it to me, they'll say, like my whole life, like after divorce, you need to go heal. But then I would be like, but really, how do I do that? And like, okay, don't be emotional. But I am right. So it can feel insulting. Like you can say, don't be emotional. And I think that like we're not actually saying don't be emotional.

We're saying take no action when you're in the heat of emotion. Like I think of emotions as, as your body's truth and your body is trying to communicate with you, and if you dig underneath the emotion is some sort of truth that your body is telling you that you can use and learn from. So I think being emotional is maybe not something we would advise against, like be emotional, like understand, do the work with your therapist.

00:41:57.950 — 00:41:58.710 · Speaker 2

The feelings.

00:41:58.750 — 00:42:04.110 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Feel it. Just don't act in it because you're going to cut your nose to spite your face.

00:42:04.190 — 00:42:06.350 · Speaker 2

You're so right. Yes, absolutely.

00:42:06.390 — 00:42:27.390 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Okay. Now, Holly, what about in the post-divorce universe? Um, do you have any things that the women listening, the women of divorce land that we can learn of the way that you've seen men, um, move on to bigger, better, happier worlds or whatever that we could learn from, that we could emulate.

00:42:28.710 — 00:43:17.949 · Speaker 2

Um, you know, I think men are just better at moving on. Um, and I think, you know, I've often wondered Because I don't know, Hannah. You I I'm interested in your experience. But in my experience, like women oftentimes want the house. They want the house so bad. And and so we do a lot of things to, to help them keep the house.

And so more times than not, like the man is displaced from the house. And I often wonder if that sort of action of like being displaced from sort of the center of the family unit, like the physical center. I wonder, does that help him move on? Because he already had to get a new place, he had to get new decor. He had to he had to literally build a new life.

And

00:43:19.030 — 00:43:24.630 · Speaker 2

I don't know, in your experience, do do women mostly want to keep the family home?

00:43:24.670 — 00:47:05.140 · Speaker 1

Well, yeah. And I have a thought on that. And I think you're right. Um, so I think generally speaking, yes, because generally speaking, the mom is asking for primary, um, care of the children and look at the way that works in Texas, right? And generally speaking. Um, the house and the kids are going to kind of stay together.

The courts in Texas, at least. And I think courts generally want the least amount of disruption to the children. That's possible. Okay. You two yahoos couldn't work it out, and you drag these kids into the middle of this. There's some sort of indirect loose, you know, colloquial tie between the house and keeping the kids.

So I think that's a lot of where it comes from. But I have the experience of I moved out of my marital home and I didn't have my kids primarily. Okay. So when I first got divorced, however, to your point of leaving the thing and accessing, I think what you're saying is all new energy. I didn't realize how important that was.

So things. It's my belief that things retain energy and I don't agree with that. Right. And so and also, if you've been married, one of these long term marriages, like you mentioned, ten or more years, pretty much everything you're going to look at around your house probably has some sort of a memory. Maybe not that lamp, but like, oh, there's that picture.

Oh, there's that statue. Like, you know, that piece of art I remember when we got it. Whatever. And if you're still surrounded with all of that same stuff, I think in a lot of ways it can anchor you. So, like, when I moved, I took almost no, no things with me. I mean, some stuff I'd had from my parents. So that was like my parents stuff.

So it didn't seem anyway, and went to Ashley Furniture and got out a credit line, you know, and just bought all new stuff for my house. And the kids had that for a long time. And there was this, this one, um, piece of furniture that I brought with me, and it's like it haunted me. It's like that one thing so drained my energy, and I wondered about, um, how it would have been if I would have had all the same stuff.

And so, like, look, if it's within in your life, uh, options if you can make it an option, or as soon as you can make it an option. I think there's really something to breaking up with all the shit. All the stuff to get. Get away from all of it. Um, as a way to help you move on. I think that's one of the ways I was able to move on.

Now. I was the woman. I was the one who filed the marriage. I'd processed it my way through and made that decision. And I'm such a decisive person. Like once I've made a decision, that's that. So, like, I have it easier in that way. I'm not wishy washy in that sense. So I made up my mind. But then also, I didn't bring all of the, um, the stuff with me even.

This is so silly, but I, I had it that my, the house where we lived in as a family, we built in this closet and I had this huge drawer, like a really big drawer full of bras and underwear. Okay. It was just like. Like this. I'd be like, every. You can envision me like, like, dig in in that drawer, okay? To find stuff.

It was so deep, like, I don't know. Foot and a half, two feet deep. And that's where all my stuff was. I somehow, in moving out, missed that drawer. Like, all together, I don't know. Just doing, you know, taking out, like, other personal effects and things. When it was, it was terrible. I didn't do it the best, to be honest.

If I could go back, I would do that very differently. Um, but I also left behind that whole drawer. And I know that's kind of silly, but, like, I didn't even bring my bra, my panties in my bra with me. Okay, so I don't know.

00:47:05.180 — 00:47:06.860 · Speaker 2

That's very interesting.

00:47:07.180 — 00:47:08.980 · Speaker 1

I know there's some there's more to that.

00:47:08.980 — 00:47:11.940 · Speaker 2

I'm sure I'm gonna say that that that should be studied.

00:47:11.940 — 00:47:51.340 · Speaker 1

I think that should be. So we'll talk to Freud about it. Um, but so I think that that's a good point. I think that also, um, you know, I think people could say a lot of different reasons why you think maybe men move on easier. I don't know that I see it one way or the other more. This than that, I think it. It comes down to whether either person I don't really.

Okay, let me say this. I don't see men two and three years later still crying necessarily about the divorce. There are some. There are some, like Facebook warrior dads who are like still bitter about how courts screwed them over. Okay, so there's those dudes.

00:47:51.380 — 00:47:51.980 · Speaker 2

Yes.

00:47:52.180 — 00:48:49.380 · Speaker 1

Accepting those people. Yes. I don't meet people. And just my experience as a person living in Austin where the guy will tell you about his divorce, you know, go on and on when you kind of first meet him, the way some women will. And you think the divorce was yesterday and it was five years ago. So like, I don't see that as much.

I think that, um, if the woman didn't file, I think that loss of control for her and that fear that it brings in and it it augments the challenge of letting go and choosing the better path instead of the bitter. I think it would be harder if someone was wanting to leave you that you otherwise thought was going fine and you were shocked and then you didn't have.

It may take them equally as long to process the divorce as they would have been, if they would have been the one to file the 3 to 5 years to decide to move on. So I think maybe they take they're going to take 3 to 5 years one way or the other, either before the divorce is happening.

00:48:49.460 — 00:48:50.980 · Speaker 2

Ready? Yes. That's true.

00:48:51.020 — 00:48:56.140 · Speaker 1

Or afterwards. I bet that's what it is. Okay, I bet we just. Okay, someone. Some psychologists can just think.

00:48:56.180 — 00:48:57.500 · Speaker 2

We uncovered something.

00:48:57.540 — 00:49:18.740 · Speaker 1

We did. I bet that there is some appreciable period of time a woman needs versus a man needs to move on, and the women process it before they leave. 70% of us are the ones filing. And I think if she's not the one, if all she's going to do it after, after. Yeah. But maybe one of the ways to do it is to get rid of all your stuff.

00:49:19.060 — 00:49:32.300 · Speaker 2

Maybe that and also, you know, statistically speaking, like a man's I think they say that a man's standard of living goes up after divorce and a woman goes down. Um, I.

00:49:32.860 — 00:49:34.780 · Speaker 1

That makes me want to throw up and throw things.

00:49:35.060 — 00:50:13.060 · Speaker 2

I know, but you know what I honestly think it is, is I actually think it's the breadwinner of the family. Their standard of living goes up. I don't I don't think it's gender specific, but because statistically speaking, most, you know, more men are breadwinners than women, I think that's what it is. And so I'm also wondering if in the moving on conversation, it's easier to move on when you feel like I can support myself.

I've got this like I'm okay versus constantly having to rely on that ex person to, you know, for your support, for your financial support. I wonder if that plays into it too, I'm sure.

00:50:13.100 — 00:51:16.260 · Speaker 1

Right. I mean, that and just if look, they say you got a million problems, but if you got a health problem, you got one problem, I would say you got a million problems. But if you got a money problem, you know? I mean, health would trump. But then money next. Right. It was not long ago where I was. I was not money comfortable.

Right. Where it was not like. I mean, if I was worried about money, I remember, you know, early being married, like counting the $25 rebate I was going to get from Lowe's from buying paint, you know. And so, like, if you're in that level of worry and like women post-divorce, I think a lot of times are trying to make it all work on income when that's not.

And it's a function of the system their family set up. She was raising the kids. She was having the kids. She put her career on the back seat and that was their deal. And then now the benefits of that deal are walking out the door, and she's left to have to pick up the pieces. And I mean, that sucks. And that's the thing, y'all.

It does suck. Like Holly and I would not say that that doesn't suck.

00:51:16.340 — 00:51:16.820 · Speaker 2

Right.

00:51:16.820 — 00:51:17.659 · Speaker 1

And

00:51:18.700 — 00:51:30.900 · Speaker 1

you can either sit around and stare at the thing that sucks and decide to get really mad and really bitter about it or do something differently, right? Because as Holly would say, you were made for more. So.

00:51:30.940 — 00:51:31.540 · Speaker 2

That's right.

00:51:31.580 — 00:51:40.420 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Okay. Now, Holly, another thing that I think is so juicy and interesting about your practice in and we understand you're this I.

00:51:40.420 — 00:51:41.420 · Speaker 2

Know seem interesting.

00:51:41.420 — 00:52:16.540 · Speaker 1

Let's go. Yeah, I know, but that you, you know, you have actual celebrities as clients, right? And obviously Holly cannot tell us in wooden who those people are. Um, but, you know, if you were going to say, like, from working with celebrities and doing their divorces and these kinds of deals that they make, uh, what is something that, you know, we those of us who only ever hear about celebrity divorces on, like clips from E!

News on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Um, what is something that we may not know about celebrity Hollywood stories getting divorced that might surprise us?

00:52:17.140 — 00:52:53.210 · Speaker 2

Um, a couple things. One is, um, if it's two celebrities together. Um, which most often in the celebrity world, it is um, in the professional athlete world, it's not always that way. So I'll talk about that in a second. But if it's two celebrities together, they both have a vested interest in keeping it very quiet and managing the press on it.

So what you might not know is that it's going on for a very long time before the world ever knows about it. Right. And so a lot of times, you'll see, um, I'm trying to think of something recent that.

00:52:53.370 — 00:53:04.170 · Speaker 1

Well, that like Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban, like, we heard about the divorce, uh, at, like, and it's already all done and everything is a deal. It's like they did not make that deal yesterday, y'all.

00:53:04.210 — 00:54:48.490 · Speaker 2

Exactly. Yeah, I was that's what I was trying to think of recent examples that I wasn't involved in so I could talk about. But J-Lo and Ben Affleck, same thing. Like we heard, they they filed and then it was like a month later, they have a whole divorce agreement. Buttoned up, sealed sign, delivered everything.

Um, that stuff is going on for a very long time before that, and there's a lot of strategy around. Uh, not actually, because normally, like, you file the paperwork, you know, you file the petition first, and then you work through your way, your you work your way through your through the divorce, and it takes a couple of years.

Um, what you might what people might not know is TMZ combs those filings in the courthouse and has alerts set up. So if you file something, TMZ knows about it within ten minutes. So anyway, there's a lot of strategy around what are you actually going to file with the court. But I think, you know, that's all fun and games and salacious and gossipy and whatever else.

But I think what most people maybe if you think about it, you'll realize it. But we don't really think about it. It's like the celebrities and, you know, the famous people and the athletes and all that. Like they're worried about all the same stuff that the rest of us are. They're scared. They don't know what's going to happen.

They're worried about finances. They're worried about, you know. Um, what are they going to have to pay or how much are they receiving? Like all of those things, you know, that the rest of the world is also worrying about in a divorce. Like they're worried about that, too. And sometimes I think, you know, we look at them from afar and think, well, they never have a financial worry.

They're so rich, you know, they never have this, that or the other. But they do. They worry about those things and, you know, they're just they're just people too.

00:54:48.850 — 00:55:07.610 · Speaker 1

Well, I think we're seeing this, um, with the Kim Kardashian and Kanye thing and how she's put out this show. Right. Um, or document, I don't even know. I've seen clips from it online where she's talking about. And you can see her talking about, like, that's the perspective of a woman who is going gone through it.

Like, yes.

00:55:07.610 — 00:55:08.050 · Speaker 2

I.

00:55:08.210 — 00:55:08.930 · Speaker 1

Feel you.

00:55:08.970 — 00:55:16.490 · Speaker 2

Said that. Yeah. I just saw the first thing this morning I haven't really been following that. And I was like, oh my gosh.

00:55:16.730 — 00:55:52.890 · Speaker 1

Well, and she's talking about just the experience of this and like how he was talking ugly, essentially ugly about my mom. And she's always loved him and cared for him. And like, I think it's something we're hearing a lot more about from them, because I always kind of think of celebrities as regular folks.

You know, I mean, it's not like I wouldn't feel like, oh my gosh, there's like Kim Kardashian if she was sitting here. But like, also, you're just Kim, like, you're a person. Yeah. And and they're going through this now. They have the added pressure of the whole world caring like you may think. The whole world cares about your divorce.

And like Duluth, is it Iowa? Minnesota? I don't know where. Even Minnesota. Whatever.

00:55:52.930 — 00:55:53.410 · Speaker 2

You know what I mean?

00:55:53.450 — 00:56:50.570 · Speaker 1

Des Moines, Iowa, they probably don't. The whole world probably doesn't care. Your whole town may not even care. Right. Certainly if you live like in Austin or like whatever. But these people do have the added pressure of the whole entire world caring about their divorce. Think about the worst of your moments in your life.

If they were fodder for TMZ people to find, and then you have actual real life children who then can go watch it and follow it, and their friends at school and whatever are going to say this to them. I think that, like, not only are they normal people, they're normal people turned up by a million. And just because people have money or fame does not take away their personhood, in my opinion.

Right. Um, and I think a lot of people treat celebrities like that and that like somehow the world is entitled to that information about them, which I just don't agree with that. Um, but that's interesting. Yeah. Just a reminder that there are just people too. Now, you were saying something about it's different when there's athletes.

00:56:50.610 — 00:57:34.010 · Speaker 2

Yes. Okay. So so what I was going to say is when you have two people who are in, in the public eye, they both have a vested interest of keeping it very quiet and do and kind of like keeping it classy when you have a case which has happened, which I've been involved in multiple of them, where you have for some reason this just happens to be the case.

More so with professional athletes is they end up, um, fathering children with people who are not in the public eye, and that those situations are the hardest because you have one person who has an extremely vested interest in reputation management, and you have another person who does not care and wants the press and wants it to be nasty.

00:57:34.050 — 00:57:35.930 · Speaker 1

Yes, sounds like leverage to me.

00:57:36.290 — 00:57:59.170 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, depending on which side you're on, you know, like. Yes. But those cases are hard because one person wants to keep it quiet, the other person does not and wants their 15 minutes. And, you know, it's very easy to to drum up a lot of press on those types of things. And if you represent the person that doesn't want the press, it's hard.

00:57:59.210 — 00:58:43.370 · Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. I mean because. Right, I think we can learn some things that us mere mortals from that is, you know, maybe it's not a professional athlete, but maybe in your town there on a city council or something. Or maybe their business is relationship driven. They sell insurance, and if like all of a sudden all their shit was laid bare, that might not be the most convenient for them.

And I'm not saying that's the best way to go, but it is. It is a motivator for people to keep things quiet and able to come to the deal and make some terms. And I think sometimes people can take that to the extreme right. If you don't give me everything I want this kind of crazy, then I'm going to tell everybody about that.

You know, that's not obviously the way it is. Divorce a co-parent. But that's what I'm talking about.

00:58:43.490 — 00:59:32.930 · Speaker 2

So here's where I see that women, oftentimes their emotions run the day to their own detriment. You know, talking earlier about like what what triggers could we really like, you know, educate women on? This is a big one. Because if what if women were operating in their practical mind and in their They're, um, like, okay, let's just take the emotion out of it.

Let's think about what is actually best for me in the long run. They would allow these situations to remain quiet, whether whether it's the local city council guy or whether it's the insurance broker or whether it's the professional athlete or whatever the case may be, they would not want to tarnish, particularly in California.

They would not want to tarnish this person's professional reputation because.

00:59:32.970 — 00:59:33.690 · Speaker 1

It's their.

00:59:33.690 — 00:59:37.330 · Speaker 2

Money. Do you want them to go on making money? Right?

00:59:38.490 — 00:59:41.210 · Speaker 2

That is what a rational, reasonable person would do.

00:59:41.250 — 00:59:43.490 · Speaker 1

See, in Texas we don't have that same motivation.

00:59:43.570 — 01:00:23.880 · Speaker 2

Okay, so in California that would be the rational reasonable motivation is I will keep this quiet. I will not I will not allege false domestic violence and have this person completely ruined because I want them to go on and make money and pay me support. But this is where sometimes emotions run the day and ruin the day because they're like, I am.

So I'm feeling so hurt and so vengeful. I want this person to be ruined, even if it means they will no longer be able to to go on in their career, their reputation will be damaged and they will make less money or no money, which means I will get less money. Like, sometimes they don't think about that.

01:00:23.920 — 01:00:27.280 · Speaker 1

Well, not to mention that still 50% of your kids DNA.

01:00:27.560 — 01:00:29.360 · Speaker 2

Yes, yes.

01:00:29.440 — 01:00:33.840 · Speaker 1

You know when you're mean to their other parent, right? You're being mean about them

01:00:35.200 — 01:00:36.000 · Speaker 1

in their own little.

01:00:36.000 — 01:00:36.360 · Speaker 2

Hearts.

01:00:36.960 — 01:00:38.360 · Speaker 1

And keeping that. But like,

01:00:39.400 — 01:01:31.080 · Speaker 1

you know, it's hard to keep all of that in line at one time when you're feel like, you know, the earth is quicksand underneath you. Now, now, Holly, in those kinds of cases, I think. Right. Um, and in some of yours, I think you've gotten yourself into some, some sticky kind of situations. One that kind of went on for a while.

Would you be willing to share just a little bit about. I mean, I think it's just a curious and interesting thing, like for divorce lawyers, people just make us the butt of jokes and all this thing. But like most divorce lawyers that I know are really kind of like the best sort of people and have the heart for this.

Like, we don't have to do this kind of law. We could have done like contract law or land or real estate or whatever, but we're in here in the front lines of life, you know, trying to wave our swords and help people. Wow. And could you tell us a little bit about what that's, you know, brought up for you in real life?

01:01:32.320 — 01:01:40.200 · Speaker 2

Um, yeah. So, um, I mean, I don't know which which sticky situation.

01:01:40.200 — 01:01:45.320 · Speaker 1

Of, like, the, like, have to get security, um, situations you've been in.

01:01:45.320 — 01:02:48.400 · Speaker 2

Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, I did not I didn't know how dangerous of a job this was, but, um. Yeah, I mean, there, you know, I've been involved in a couple dangerous cases, um, some, some of those cases have been because the clients are involved in something dangerous, you know, cartel affiliations, things like that.

Um, other cases have been where, you know, you you're working on a case for a while, and the client starts to sort of blur the blur the lines in their mind of of the role that you play in their life. And, um, you know, unfortunately, like, there are people, clients, opposing parties that are battling mental illness.

So there's been a couple times in my career where the cases have gotten dangerous for any of the above mentioned factors, and I've had to get a bodyguard, I've had security, you know, um, you have to sort of take precautions against those, those types of things. Mhm.

01:02:48.480 — 01:03:02.200 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I've never been to that. I mean I think that, you know, we've all heard stories of divorce lawyers getting in those situations and they're just horrible. You want to think about it for much longer. You know every you know because we're in the middle. We're in the center of people, um,

01:03:03.440 — 01:03:20.880 · Speaker 1

deciding what's going to happen for everything they care about in this entire world. And, you know, bringing up all their fears, all their insecurities. Like we are in deep. I'm grateful to get to do it. And I'm grateful to do a job that matters. It feels like it matters, you know, and you can really.

01:03:20.880 — 01:03:21.760 · Speaker 2

Say, yeah.

01:03:22.040 — 01:03:23.760 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Most days, some days it's like, whatever.

01:03:23.760 — 01:03:25.360 · Speaker 2

You think, like this is all meaningless.

01:03:26.800 — 01:04:38.880 · Speaker 1

But on the whole, you know, we we joke that if you're not like, you know, fuck this at least once a week in family law because you're, like, completely at your wit's end, then you're not doing it right. You're not in it. Um, but, you know, y'all, it's just there's there's so much at stake, and nobody is judging women or men or whoever for the way they're handling it.

These are just some things that we can learn from a big, fancy, um, California lawyer who deals with, you know, fancy folks and some of the ways that they do it. And in a totally different scheme. And one thing I'm taken away is to see how much where we've practiced has affected both of our outlooks. Because if, you know, if I was in a state where I was unlimited alimony after spousal or whatever, after a certain amount of marriage, I mean, the advice would be, look, you better be real.

Sure you're going to stick after ten. Are you? Better get out before you know. So it just shapes the way we think about it. So okay, now, Holly, we ask these same questions. If everybody who comes on the show, you know, the name of the show is not saving it for later. And we found this to be a pretty evocative statement.

Like, it usually brings up something in people. So does it bring up anything for you? Is there anything you find yourself saving for later?

01:04:39.480 — 01:05:26.840 · Speaker 2

So yes, all the time. And and I love that you've like, you know, taken this thing and like, have done what you've done with it. Um, and what I, what it brings up for me is like, it's a matter of discipline. I have to talk myself into not saving something for later. You know, you have to have this, like, little internal dialog, you know, like in the morning.

Like, am I going to squirt that perfume or this perfume? It's like, well, I'm going to do this one because that's the special one. It's like, no, no, squirt the special one, you know, like you have, but you have to, like, have this little internal dialog. Um, and I kind of love that you're, like, bringing it to, to our consciousness.

But yeah, the thing that it kind of brings up for me is like, no, you you have to be disciplined to not save it for later.

01:05:27.080 — 01:05:56.120 · Speaker 1

Mhm. Yeah. It's interesting because in the different people we've talked with this season, several of them are like yeah I don't save anything for later. Like it's all now I do you know it's so interesting and there is something to study there about like the root in us that makes us like I say, you know, I've talked before a bunch of times about like, which spoon I'm going to use in the morning and they're literally reusable.

And you literally put them in the dishwasher. Um, it's the dumbest thing, but I you know, the first step is awareness, right? Bringing it.

01:05:56.120 — 01:06:03.400 · Speaker 2

Forward. Okay. What do you what have you observed about the people that are like I don't save anything for later. Like how did they get that way?

01:06:03.800 — 01:06:13.280 · Speaker 1

I think they're really conscious and aware and like connected to experiencing pleasure

01:06:14.360 — 01:07:18.400 · Speaker 1

and joy and depth of of feeling now like. And the only presence and pleasure like presence and pleasure go together. You can't experience pleasure in any other way except in the now that's actually how we experience all of life, right? Is in the now, right now, now is all there actually is. Later is a lie.

And yesterday it's gone. Right? So all you ever experienced life in is in the now. And people who truly like, root in and through their presence allow pleasure and allow good things and and the now and don't necessarily spend all their time strategizing and guarding against everything that could come and threaten them, right?

And they're content to just be the people who can just be. All of everything is now. They're not going to save it for later. They have this knowledge, this like, I'll be present then too, and I'll have what I need then. And so they're not stocking up for some future like apocalypse.

01:07:19.560 — 01:07:20.400 · Speaker 2

Right?

01:07:20.720 — 01:07:23.400 · Speaker 1

I know, I know, there's a lot and I think.

01:07:23.440 — 01:07:24.360 · Speaker 2

More like that.

01:07:24.360 — 01:08:20.150 · Speaker 1

I think it's catching. I think people like that can remind you, uh, and being around them more of just like, hey, just a minute. Like, Lily Shepherd has been a guest on the show, and she is the one who said, I don't say anything for later. And I remember her being at a brunch with her, and we were going to everybody.

Da da da da da da about law firms and businesses and blah blah blah blah blah. And she just was sitting there kind of like unbothered and like, but where are you in this. Like that question. God just pierced my heart. And I think as women, so often we ride ourselves out of our own lives. Um, because that brings me actually to the dominant thought.

And this is what my dominant thought was for the week. So I have this theory that like we we have one main thought our brain is chewing on. I mean, we have a lot of thoughts in a day, but like that one kind of through line that's on your mind until you sort of either solve it or it gets replaced by something else.

And mine has been, um, I'll, I'll go first because it's relevant to what I was saying.

01:08:20.190 — 01:08:20.750 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

01:08:20.790 — 01:08:27.790 · Speaker 1

Is about how I'm going to do all the things anyway, so I might as well enjoy it.

01:08:29.029 — 01:09:50.910 · Speaker 1

And like this week in particular, I have so many things, like if I just put a list of all the things and set them in a row, I know you would understand, but a lot of people would be like, uh, what? Like that sounds like a month or a year's worth of stuff in a week. And I'm like, I know, I know, I do this to myself. And I found myself this week looking at that week ahead of me with some anxiety, some fear, some nerves, like pre living everything in advance to like what all could go wrong and like look some of it.

I need a plan because I need to do things on day A that's going to affect day A plus six to figure out. Right. So but then I was, you know, on Sunday night before it was Monday when I had a really big day, I was thinking, you know, I'm going to do that day anyway. I'm going to do it. So I have a choice to make. Am I going to have a good attitude or not?

Am I going to enjoy it or not? Worrying like going in it in this like grin and bear it white knuckle to get through it? That's at one choice and I'll still get through the day. Yeah, or I could invite fun in, invite pleasure in, invite joy in and say, you know, I might as I'm going to do this, why don't I have a good time?

And it's that sort of, I think, attitude that people who don't save things for later. Maybe a little more naturally do. So. That's my dominant thought.

01:09:51.750 — 01:10:04.470 · Speaker 2

I love it, huh? I'm like, what I what is my dominant thought? I mean, I have a I, I guess the thing that comes to mind is,

01:10:05.590 — 01:10:07.750 · Speaker 2

well, I have a couple things coming to mind.

01:10:07.750 — 01:10:09.150 · Speaker 1

Say whatever. Yeah, I want to know.

01:10:09.190 — 01:11:04.430 · Speaker 2

Okay. So like what? I was some a thought that I had this morning was like, there are so many things throughout the day that it's like a roller coaster. Like you get good news and then you get bad news and then you get okay news, and then something bad happens. If there's something great happen, you know, like it's just like some days feel a little bit like that.

And it's like, I guess it maybe it's somewhat similar to your dominant thought, where it's like, I could choose to not ride that roller coaster, you know, I can just choose to just have a good day all day. And yes, this happens and that happens and this happens and this news comes to me and that news comes, you know, and it's like I can just choose to just be on an even keel and not let all those things dictate my emotional state on an hour by hour or minute by minute basis.

That was my thought this morning. Yeah.

01:11:04.470 — 01:11:21.110 · Speaker 1

Oh, well. And related to this. Is there anything shaking you right now? Like, is there a book, a quote, something you saw on Instagram, a TV show, a movie, anything that's shaking you up right now that maybe our, our listeners might want to dig into a little bit.

01:11:21.750 — 01:11:29.230 · Speaker 2

Okay. Well, I just I what is coming to my mind is that I just ordered a book this morning that I'm really excited to get.

01:11:29.630 — 01:11:30.870 · Speaker 1

Yes. Yes. What?

01:11:30.910 — 01:11:37.470 · Speaker 2

Yeah. It's called UN world. And do you know the divorce attorney, James Sexton? He's like very good.

01:11:37.510 — 01:11:41.470 · Speaker 1

I am obsessed with him. One day he's got to come on our podcast. Holly.

01:11:41.510 — 01:11:42.990 · Speaker 2

Oh, yes. That would be amazing.

01:11:43.230 — 01:11:44.910 · Speaker 1

We'll join up. We'll do it together.

01:11:44.990 — 01:11:51.590 · Speaker 2

Yes. I'll join forces and be like James, please come. We do do both our podcasts at the same time. Oh my God. Yeah.

01:11:52.190 — 01:11:53.790 · Speaker 1

This is manifesting. Look it up. Okay.

01:11:53.830 — 01:12:25.550 · Speaker 2

Yes, yes. So I just saw a reel of him this morning and somebody asked the question. I can't remember the question, but he was like a book that brought me to tears multiple times. Was this book. I think it's somebody. The author's name is somebody green. It's called unworldly. And he's like, what it's about is not what it's about.

It's it's supposed to be like about how technology and something can come together, but it's really just about being human and the human experience. And I'm like, I got to get that book. So I ordered it this morning.

01:12:25.910 — 01:12:28.790 · Speaker 1

Awesome. Oh, I love it. Okay, you're gonna have to report back. I want to know. Yes, I.

01:12:28.790 — 01:12:30.910 · Speaker 2

Will report back next time I see you. Yes.

01:12:30.950 — 01:12:52.990 · Speaker 1

With James Sexton. His stuff is so good. And the gal Lina in Houston. I don't know if you've seen any of her stuff. Not so good where she was doing the one recently about or when we're recording this as recently, uh, about, uh, coffee dates and like, don't take coffee dates from men. Like, that's not enough effort in planning and all this.

You need to follow her. She's so good. Also, we can post it in the notes.

01:12:52.990 — 01:12:53.750 · Speaker 2

Okay.

01:12:53.910 — 01:13:09.470 · Speaker 1

Um, okay. A book that, you know, and I think the book. Like, when the students ready, the teacher appears. And so the books find their way to you, right? That one found its way to you. Holly. Mine was the book signs. I'm trying to think her last name. I think the author's last name is Jackson. Um, I've been

01:13:10.870 — 01:13:54.230 · Speaker 1

so connected with the number four lately, and this is kind of a little crazy, but whatever. Here we are. So just seeing fours everywhere, but not just like. Oh, sometimes I see 11, 11. It's like. No, like literally screaming at me these number fours and like been a little bit on this journey trying to figure out like, what's that about?

I believe it's, it's communication from what I call the realm, which is like everything that's not 3D world is God and Jesus and Buddha and angels and all the good things. All the stuff out there. Okay. The university stuff. Um, and I know the realm is like speaking to me with that, and I don't, I don't the like what does ChatGPT say about it isn't sufficient.

It's not kind of scratching that itch. So I'm a little bit on a, on a.

01:13:54.830 — 01:13:56.590 · Speaker 2

On a journey to find journey.

01:13:56.630 — 01:14:28.670 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I was going to say tear. It's like not tear, but just like curious. And so this book science was recommended me to a guy by a guy named Ion Pi. And he's awesome and does a bunch of energy work and just cool stuff. And so he had suggested it to me. And it's a super light and easy read, like before bed, because I hadn't been sleeping that good recently with all this, all my stuff going on.

Yeah. So I added back in that habit of taking 10 or 15 minutes at bed with just the lamp on something sort of spiritually and slow to read at night. So I was weaving that back in.

01:14:28.710 — 01:14:31.310 · Speaker 2

So, I mean, you say, what is the book about.

01:14:31.430 — 01:14:35.750 · Speaker 1

Science like science and communication from what I call the realm, from the universe?

01:14:35.830 — 01:14:38.190 · Speaker 2

Okay. It's literally about like getting signs.

01:14:38.190 — 01:15:10.070 · Speaker 1

Sorry. Yes, sorry. The book signs is about that. So it's about getting signs and different people's experiences was written by this gal who's like a medium in the sense of like different trip quintuple blind studies and all this stuff like certified her as this and she's done research and things. She's very well known.

Glen and Doyle wrote a blurb about it in the front. And so I was like, okay, let's cool with Glennon. It's cool with me. And and so it's just about that. And like, I don't know that it's going to have like the depth of the answer that I'm looking for in the book.

01:15:10.110 — 01:15:13.950 · Speaker 2

That's what I was going to ask is, has it revealed the the meaning of the force?

01:15:13.990 — 01:15:41.780 · Speaker 1

No. So far I'm to the point where she's telling other people's stories where they were a little bit like, does this mean something? Okay, yes it does. And like she's a medium. So she like communicates with people who've passed or she calls like crossed over or something like that and communicated with them.

Um, and they're sort of sending signs back through her or like to their loved ones and their whatever. So their their confirming that. So nothing. Nothing yet about the force. So I'm a little bit. Yeah. If anybody knows like.

01:15:41.980 — 01:15:42.420 · Speaker 2

What.

01:15:42.820 — 01:15:54.780 · Speaker 1

The depth of it. I need to know. I was the same guy I and recommended another book. So I'll have to report back. Um, for after this. He was like, that's kind of starter. And then there's something else that sounded a little wild. So that's in my Amazon cart on the way. We'll have.

01:15:54.780 — 01:15:55.500 · Speaker 2

Okay, great at.

01:15:55.500 — 01:16:09.460 · Speaker 1

Each other. Yeah. Okay. Holly, last question. Um, if you could tell the women of divorced land listening only one thing. Now, remember, we're guiding them through divorce and beyond. Um, what would you tell them.

01:16:11.180 — 01:16:14.740 · Speaker 2

That's so easy? I would tell them you are made for more.

01:16:17.300 — 01:16:18.060 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:16:18.540 — 01:16:30.900 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Don't lose your power. Like, you know, I think sometimes in in the course of getting married and having kids like you lose yourself and you lose your power and you lose, um,

01:16:32.060 — 01:16:55.300 · Speaker 2

I don't want to say you lose your purpose, because your purpose as a mom and a wife is a very valid purpose. But what I also believe to be true is that if God wanted our like whole life's purpose to be being a mother, he would have made kids that never grow up and they grow up. So, you know, so you got to find something else, something in addition to that.

Yeah.

01:16:55.300 — 01:19:17.500 · Speaker 1

I think that's such an encouragement. Um, and what's what's good news, everybody, is that if you're still listening and you're here on this journey, you're at a really good place in life. To find out more about what Holly is talking about and what I'm talking about. And it's not too late. I don't believe you can miss any boat made for you.

I don't believe you're behind. I don't believe you've screwed it all up. When you know better, you do better. And you didn't know. And when you made the decisions you made, you probably made them from an unhealed place. And you got yourself into circumstances and like, you have the courage, um, either yourself or like in reaction to this, to create an entirely new life.

And it's really scary. And then it gets a little bit easier day by day. And it's an amazing opportunity to totally reinvent your life. Like, sometimes this is kind of crazy, but I'll like, feel a little bad for people who don't get divorced because they don't have that like metamorphosis opportunity that divorce thrusts upon you.

Now, ideally they say you can you're going to get married three times in your life. Hopefully they're all to the same person. Right. Um, and and so it's like if you're married a long term, that's a whole different episode. Holly, if you've been married a while, you know, hopefully you all can grow together and you can have those metamorphosis have a metamorphosis along the way.

A big change, but for a lot of people to do so, they the change involves shedding that that situation that no longer serves them. So you're at a good spot, even if it feels really shitty. And even if you can't even imagine it being better, I promise you it does get better. That old old saying sticks around because it's true that time has a way of healing all wounds.

It doesn't mean they go away. It doesn't mean that they erased. You may still have scars, but if you let it, the function of time can do a lot to sew up your heart and give you a foundation upon which you can build an entirely different life. So I think those of you who that calls out to you, you're definitely going to want to follow Holly's podcast.

You can follow her on all the social medias. We'll post all the stuff below. Um, Holly, thank you so much for being here. This was the most fun. I have so many more questions. I think we're gonna have to do a whole nother episode just to come.

01:19:17.540 — 01:19:17.940 · Speaker 2

Okay.

01:19:17.980 — 01:19:18.620 · Speaker 1

Sounds good.

01:19:18.620 — 01:19:20.060 · Speaker 2

Thank you so much for having me.

01:19:20.060 — 01:19:21.020 · Speaker 1

Thank you.