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English (US)

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When you are a true victim of narcissistic abuse, you really do lose yourself. I always say now, like I'm willing to lose anybody. The risk of losing myself again like that will never happen because you are literally catering to everybody else to be what they want you to be, rather than being anything for yourself.

Let's be honest, most of us were taught to wait our turn to tone it down to save it for later. Later, when the kids are grown. Later when the timing's right. Later when you finally stop caring what they think. Well, I'm done waiting. I'm Hannah Hembree Bell, Texas divorce lawyer, mom and woman who rebuilt her life from the wreckage.

This is not saving it for later. The podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond. Hi everybody. I am so excited for us to get together with my friend and about to be yours, Jenny, Prim and Jenny, I mean. Her list of accolades is a lot. Um, number one bestselling author, speaker. I mean, the list could kind of go on and on, and I'm so excited because her most recent book called unsubscribe, came out recently, and we're going to be talking a lot about that today.

So, Jenny, did I miss anything anything else we need to throw in there? That was such a wonderful introduction. Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. Well, look, um, we. Jenny and I met a few months ago now when she was out promoting her new book, unsubscribe. And this sort of, like, random turn of events that had us at outweigh in in southwest Austin for an evening.

And we were visiting, uh, about her book unsubscribe. And I was like, oh my God. Basically, a divorce is the ultimate unsubscribe. And I thought it would be an amazing opportunity for our audience to learn a little bit about that concept. But and I want to talk about that, but I think it might help if we back up a little bit to your first book, um, and the relationship you found yourself in, because everybody listening to the show are, um, women before, during or after divorce.

So this is the podcast guiding women through divorce and beyond, um, and divorce, family law, custody, you know, drama. And I know, um, you talk about this in your book. Um, you're my favorite. The experience in the sort of family situation you found yourself in. And so I wonder, would you be cool? Would you share us with us a little bit so they can maybe see how they might relate to something you've been through?

And, um, we can kind of take it from there. Of course, I'm an open book. And the funny thing about it is, there's so much that I've learned since I even published that book about the situation. So sometimes I get to talk about things that aren't even in the book. There should be a version to oh. So. Yeah. So. And you're my favorite.

Basically, I found myself, Um, I was in a relationship, was not interested in dating because my life was good. I had this big corporate job. I was traveling all the time for work and for fun. I had my dogs like, life was good. So why would I, you know, mess things up by dating somebody? And he had two kids, but he kind of broke my walls down and spoiler alert, started dating.

You know, things move along. I have this instant family, and I love every bit of it. Even though I didn't really think that kids were going to be in the cards for me by choice, this seemed like the perfect way to kind of have these bonus kids. I don't have to give birth, you know? Like so I have this instant family and from the outside everything looked perfect.

Like kind of your quintessential, like, family. Two kids, two dogs, the proverbial white picket fence. And I came home one day from a work trip, and a friend wanted to urgently meet for cocktails on a Tuesday night. And so all day I'm thinking, what's going on with her? Like, is everything okay? Is she sick?

Is she dying? Is she getting divorced? You know, like, what is it? I'm going through all of the possibilities, and I get there, and she proceeds to display this arrangement of evidence and says, it's not about you. It's about Chad, the man that was at home living in my house, which is like his fake name, right?

Yeah, it's his fake name. Like, just little side note. Um, if I've ever joked about if I was going to make a memoir about my experience, like the the good, the bad, the ugly, the guy's name was going to be Chad. So I guess that's just the name we call that that guy. Yeah. Don't be a Chad. You don't be a Chad. Well, and the thing is, the only reason I picked that name is because he had commented that he hates that name.

So, you know, naturally, it just seemed like a natural fit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you. She's saying your girlfriend saying to you, oh, my God, what's happening in your house? Because he moved into your house is not what you think. Right. What was happening? He basically was living a complete double life.

There were women. Um, he was financially a fraud. He was performing chiropractic adjustments on people practicing medicine, and he's not a doctor. So not only and he has harmed people. Oh God, doing that. And it was just not what I thought. Who who I thought he was at all like he would when I would travel for work, he would just leave my elderly dogs and neglect and abuse them.

And to me, like, that's maybe the worst defense of it all, like anybody that can do that. So I went home and I talked to him. And I'm a person that makes decisions based on information, not emotion. But I just was like, if I can prove one thing in all of this evidence, then it's probably that's enough. That's true.

Right? You know, like, if one is true, it's probably all true. And it works well. What motivation would your friend have to make it all up? Right? Yeah, I think it was just she received the information. So it was like third party. So I just wanted to validate it, and I did the next morning. Um, turns out, when we had just gotten back from a ten day trip to Italy, that of course, I footed the bill for, because I know you were going to ask.

Yeah. Um, I had to turn around and go on another work trip. And on that trip, I remember sitting on the edge of the bed. He and I were texting and it was like 730 at home. And he was like, I'm just too sick to even be a dad. I'm going to go bring the kids to their moms, and I'm just going to go to bed. I remember, like this wave feeling like this wave came crashing over me, like something wasn't right.

Well, the next day I woke up with shingles on my face and my 30s, which is not normal, right? And so my body, like, knew, I think, before I even did. Okay. So all of the pieces kind of fell into place. I got him out of my house and did he didn't like at the time. Did he deny? What was the reaction? Yeah, it was a lot of gaslighting.

Uh, specifically Davo, which is a specific kind of gaslighting. It stands for deny, attack and then reverse the victim and offender. And he wouldn't answer anything. He would just say, well, do you believe it? Do you believe it? Do you believe it? Mhm. And then we talked for maybe like 4040. How do they learn that.

I don't know like the I've, I've heard you know denied until you die. Um I. People who are truth tellers, we don't even think of that. Yeah. Like just but that they, they told him someplace, somehow they learned it. I guess now they can just learn it on the internet. Yeah, well, I joked, it's so interesting because I unfortunately, you know, because I grew up in a narcissistic household, the patterns and behavior are familiar.

And so you tend to pick that because there's comfort and familiarity, even if it's not healthy and it's bad for you. And that's, I think, a big part of the reason why I found myself in that situation. But that said, the patterns of the things that they do and say, it's like, did they all learn from the same textbook?

It's really fascinating. Um, okay. So then you your body had known. Do you think that that you could have. Is there anything you could have picked up on sooner or something? You know, now, knowing what you know when you look back. Um, were there signs and things that you'd ignored or not listened to that you now know with the clarity of, I guess, hindsight?

Absolutely. I should have trusted myself a lot sooner. Mhm. Well, and you know, one of the, the things we've been talking about this season too is basically how did we get ourselves into this mess in the first place. Because a lot of women that I talked to, I'm a lawyer in my day job and that I've seen over the years, um, both from a professional perspective, but just anecdotally, as a person who literally talks about divorce type stuff all day, every day, pretty much, um, is how many beautiful, talented, strong, amazing women get themselves into these situations with guys like this.

And then how? Number one, how do we get into it in the first place? And then number two. Often women don't do the work to heal whatever it was that got them in this thing in the first place. And then they repeat that pattern over and over and over again. So. Like, can you and you alluded to it, your upbringing.

Do you think that influenced, um. That that narcissistic, you know, stuff that you dealt with growing up influenced your susceptibility to a guy like Chad? Undoubtedly. Yes. How or why? I mean, why do you think that is? Well, I think it's because you don't know that a behavior is bad until you know it's bad if it's what you've been conditioned to tolerate and accept, that's what you think.

That's what's normalized, right? When do you think it became not normal for you? Or like, what woke you up to see that this experience really like my life imploding. Like that's what it took in order for me to go. Huh? What is this? This obviously isn't right. And then to start to be able to name and understand the patterns, right.

Like we study and look at narcissism now, love bombing, gaslighting, all of these words that get thrown around flippantly. But they are real. And there's a reason why they're studied and talked about now, so that people can become more aware and protect themselves from these behaviors. Well, and I think it's it's common.

And just because they're thrown around, I think it's it's like a double edged sword. So I do agree that they're thrown around a lot, which in some ways can cheapen them. But I also think in some ways it's a really prevalent thing in our society now. Now is all or all of those behaviors all the way to clinical.

You know, I think reasonable minds could disagree about that. But I think that that part of what we're seeing out there on the internet, on the TikToks, on the Instagrams, whatever the conversations are. It's just it feels like it's everywhere because it's just now sort of known to talk about. Or people had no idea, like, oh my God, when they say this thing or do this thing or make me feel like maybe I'm a little bit crazy, that's actually a thing.

Yes. And you in the middle of it, you don't know. It's kind of like if you're if you're in a house, um, and it's and you've been in there all day and you don't notice and you leave and then you come back and you're like, oh my God, it smells like gas in here, right? That kind of a feeling, um, can happen. And so it sounds like for you that that's what happened.

You were just busy living in it and didn't even notice the smell until something like, forced you out of it. And then maybe. I don't know if this is right, but you tell me. But like, maybe then you looked at it with your grownup eyes, a little bit like this corporate. I know you were in corporate America, this big shot doing the big, important stuff.

I mean, that's not your words. Those are my words. Um, but that that version of you, this modern day version of you saw what that wounded version of you tolerated and was like. Um, no. You think that's what happened? Yeah, I think it was more of like a hell no. Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, yeah. Not doing this anymore.

I saw a quote, actually, um, Casey Shipp, who was on season one of the show. I sent this to me that that the healed version of you will no longer tolerate, um, what the wounded version of you would. Yeah, right. And so do you think then, that, like, part of you had already been healing, that had the strength when this new life was confronted with you to look at it differently and build, like, had you sort of been doing both, like harboring these old patterns while also developing some strength alongside?

Was it kind of like that? Did you feel like two people about it, or was it not that distinct for you? I think. I mean, I'm definitely a very different person now than I was then. Um, I think that we take our old versions with us and we start again with more information, with more experience to get to a better place of where we're supposed to be.

You can you can write like I was thinking of what you said. Yes. We take or, you know, take our experiences with this. And then I think that we have a choice to make, like in this context of the show, we're talking a lot about divorce, right? So or leaving a bad relationship and into a new one or whatever in that transition, I think that there's a choice.

Like some people don't use it to be better. They don't use it to choose better. They don't use it to learn to heal whatever they need to do. Um, some people use it, I'll say like bitter or bitter and you get to choose. So sometimes people do use it for bitter, but I think, um, it is an opportunity. Anytime you have the super jarring, life changing thing happen, like you had happened with Chad and lost a family overnight.

Right. And and you then can decide, okay, what am I going to do with this? Is this going to break me? I'm gonna sit around and cry and feel sorry for myself. What am I going to use this to build in into the person that I could be? But I think, like for a lot of women in divorce and a lot of women who face these circumstances, like, I think it could have been easy for you to adopt, like switch the victim and the oppressor kind of a role and yourself without even meaning to do it.

And I think a lot of us do that in the divorce. It's like, okay, this guy is the bad guy. All of my problems are his. And if I just got rid of that 200 pounds, then all of my problems would be better. And then I'll just meet someone else who will love me better and everything will be great. And they don't do the work on themselves, and they bring their same shit forward into the next relationship.

So can you walk us through what maybe you did or are still doing to not bring that stuff forward and make a different choice. Yeah, I think for me I agree it is a choice and I get that question all the time. Like, how did you not wallow in it or you know what not. For me, I didn't see another way. I only I saw that the only choice was to use it for good and to do better and to make a positive impact, not just on my own life, but on other peoples.

Right. I didn't used to be vulnerable at all. Like so the fact that I put out this whole like, crazy story of my self because I thought vulnerability was weak, it's actually strength, right? But when I started to kind of go on the journey, it took a lot of turning the lens inward and reflection on my own behaviors.

Right. Like, how did I get here and how do I not go here again? And I did a lot of sitting with myself, meditation, getting to know myself. When you are a true victim of narcissistic abuse, you really do lose yourself. And I always say now, like I will. I'm willing to lose anybody at the risk of losing myself again.

Like that will never happen because you are literally catering to everybody else to be what they want you to be. Rather than being anything for yourself. And so in that point of over functioning, you know, just I was holding the household down, paying the mortgage, paying the bills, doing the grocery shopping, traveling, working the job, making sure the house was clean, making sure the lawn was mowed.

You know, all of it. And you don't even realize when you're in that space how much of yourself you've lost. And you know, I know that kind of I know a little bit more of the rest of the story. Right? So then you fast forward, how did this experience play into your decision, if at all? Um, to leave your big corporate job behind and take this huge, big risk.

Like, where did this healing journey? And sitting with yourself and getting to know yourself part? How did that line up with your your decision to to leave corporate behind 100% aligned. I mean, it's everything. It's the entire reason. So when I publisher my favorite I was still in my corporate job. And luckily I had an amazing boss at the time who was super supportive.

Like she actually flew in for the book launch party from New York, which was awesome. We're still really good friends. Um, but at that time I didn't know, like at that time it was just like, oh, I'm going to put this book out into the world and see what happens. And shortly after, the writing kind of was on the wall that I didn't think our division at my company was going to survive.

We were having issues with our product, and we laid off like half of our sales force. So I was kind of like, what am I going to like? What am I going to do if that happens? And I started building the whole framework for my business. I hired a business coach. I got all of my, um, coaching certifications through an ICF accredited program.

I started my podcast. So I'm like now doing my full time corporate job and then kind of building things behind the scenes. Like my nights, weekends. That's what I'm spending my time doing. And then ultimately, our company did close our division, so I had been planning it for, I mean, months if not years to kind of prepare for that and really started, um, hit the ground running with my speaking career, which is the primary thing that I do now.

Um, podcast book coaching. Mhm. And then do you feel that you were able, you know, to make such a brave, bold move because you obviously could have just like left the corporate, um, department closing, go to another corporate, uh, department but instead to go out and pave your own way. Do you think your experience surviving the narcissist situation and then the exit and that whole, like, sort of burn down of your life?

Do you think that that equipped you to make that big move? Yeah. I think when you see yourself in a completely different way, because that was never on my radar. It was never on my radar to leave. Corporate? I thought corporate was the thing for me, right? Like climbing the corporate ladder. But when everything kind of gets turned on its head for you, you start to see things in a different light.

So while I never saw this for myself now, I could never see it another way. Hmm. Well, that's so interesting, because I think a lot of women feel that when they're going through the divorce that like, this is the end, that there is some part of them that will always be damaged goods that will always be broken, their family will always be broken, their kids will always be sad and terrible.

And that it's like this end to, I don't know, some, some level of goodness is over. And what I found from most people on the other, other side of some big life moment, like divorce or like what you went through, that's, you know, in the family situation that so often it's really just the beginning of a whole new way, because it has a way of truly stripping out

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the parts of you that aren't really you. So it's like, it's like this refiner's fire that like, everything burns off. That can't stay right. That was attached to your marriage where you placed part of your identity in this relationship, in this marriage, in being a wife and all those different pieces or in this relationship.

Right. Um, that that will burn off. And what's left is what you've got left. I talk about it in terms of like, your derivative identity and your core identity. Um, and I think of a derivative identity as how how you define yourself in relation to others, like a wife. To be a wife, you have to define yourself by someone else, the husband or the spouse, right?

The other wife or whatever. Um, and then what these big life moments do Is burn down all of those derivative identities because you're not a wife the same. You're not even a mom the same. You're not, you know, a corporate worker the same anymore. And you realize you've defined yourself and giving away so much power to each one of these things, to say who you are.

And then when they're gone, you're left with what's left. And for a lot of us women, especially if you meet these people young or you start giving away those of your cards early on, you you don't build that core thing that like, like you just said, you have the power of someone who's built their own identity now because you're like, I may lose everybody else, but I ain't losing me.

And when I was 21 years old and getting married, I didn't have that to say. I didn't even know. I didn't even know if you would have said that. I'm sure I'd have been like, well, like, I don't even that doesn't relate to anything to me. But I think that's one of the things that it sucks in the moment and feels like an end, because all of these places you've deposited your power are now gone, and you don't get the dopamine from it.

You don't get the serotonin, you don't get all those things to kind of bolster you, and you're left with your own version of that. Yeah, I think especially as women, the problem is, is that we can get in this all or nothing black and white thinking. But two things can be true at the same time. You can grieve the loss of your old life and be excited about your new life at the same time.

Yeah. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Yeah. And I think that that some women do get there. And they I think a lot of times can feel guilty about that because like, oh, I'm doing this horrible thing to my family and to my kids, and I need to stay sad and miserable about it. And there's like a lot of really hard shit that you have to do.

And it's okay to like, say, um, I don't have to be around that guy anymore. What if I can meet some other people in life, have some time for some hobbies, or going to the gym or stuff that I didn't have anymore? Sometimes have a break from my children because they'll be with their other parent, right? And letting themselves off the hook to look forward to that, I don't think is the easiest, because I think we're so conditioned to, um, the martyr, selfless woman trope that to allow in some enjoyment and allow in some ease and allow in some, um, self prioritization is like kind of like a dirty little secret, almost.

Um, so I totally I know that people appreciate that now. Okay. So you leave the corporate job, you start doing all the speaking things and now tell us, because I've got a copy here. I'm holding up, um, your unsubscribed book. So how does this enter in, um, to the conversation? Where did this come from? And tell us about it.

Okay. Well, I'm so glad you made that transition and not me, because as you were just talking about, what you were just saying is, what I was going to say is in terms of

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Especially women, but just humans in general. We tend to hang on to things for longer than we should. And so really, like we live in this hustle culture, right where it's about more and more and more. I need to be doing more to be successful. I need to add more to my plate. And what I've discovered through all of this work is it's not about more, it's actually about less with intention.

And when we let go of an unhealthy relationship, let's say, or a toxic job or a or an unhealthy friendship, whatever that looks like, or a really bad marriage or a really bad marriage, what you do is by letting that go now, you create space for what's more aligned for you right now. And it doesn't mean that that thing was all bad.

You can still appreciate it and thank it for the part that it played in your life, but then move forward without it so that you do create that room for what actually matters for you now. So I really call it this filter to reclaim time, energy and boundaries at work and in life. And it's really the secret is letting go.

Letting stuff go. Paying attention to things sooner. And it's not to say that we can just, you know, flippantly walk away from everything and responsibilities and burn it to the ground. But it's being strategic and mindful about where we are participating and where we're choosing not to. Okay, so if somebody was going to like or thinking about this, unsubscribe.

And I really like the part you said about holding on to things for way too long, because did you know that there's some stats and stuff out there that say that women often consider divorce for years before they ever actually file for divorce, and talk about holding on for something for so long. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why we do that, right?

We want to be really sure. We're not sure what's normal. I think we deal with a lot of self-worth issues of like, am I even deserving of something else or something different? Um, I think often there are kids at stake. So you're going to be real goddamn sure that this is what you want to do. And I think there's a lot of reasons why we do that, but especially in marriages, people.

And I think that's probably true of some bad jobs. Right? It's I think a lot of times. Right. A fear of the unknown, a fear of at least the devil you know. Right. Then whatever else may be out there, so is is there an exercise you help people through, or what would they need to do practically to figure out whether they're in a situation like that?

Like how when does something rise to the level of we're holding on too long and how do we know? Yeah. And just to add to what you were saying, I think society right. The oh, what will other people think? I think that's something that keeps people in things for too long also. So I think if you are questioning it, that's already your answer, right?

So if you're questioning it, that's already your answer to at least take a look. Right. Like to at least take a look. So unsubscribe is built on four pillars. There's block, mute swap and manage. But usually you go through manage, swap, mute before you get to block. Right. Like block would be the ultimate unsubscribe.

Like you're going to remove them from your life. But even if you do get divorced, right, and you're co-parenting, you can't completely remove that person from your life. You're going to have to manage that relationship in some aspect. But you can create the boundaries and the way that you interact with it.

So unsubscribe is never about controlling anybody else. It's really about taking ownership of what's right for you and what's no longer meant for you. Okay, so tell me. So there's what say the steps again. There's block mute swap and manage block mute swap and manage. But we usually do them in sort of a reverse order.

So what's the where would they start first. So is it manage. You manage. What if you're if you're struggling right. If you're let's say it's a marriage or a relationship or friendship or a family member, you're probably not going to just be like, oh, we had a bad conversation. You're out. Right? You're going to try to save it in some way.

So maybe you look at how long have I been trying to manage this relationship? You know, if it's unhealthy communication, if you don't feel good, you know, paying attention to our energy when we spend time with this person. Uh, I just wish that women would start treating their time and energy as more valuable of an asset than their money.

Because it is, you can always make more money. You can't make more time. Yeah. So paying attention to how those interactions feel, maybe you change the way that you have those interactions instead of in person. Maybe it's virtual, right? Like you can kind of control the parameters around frequency duration.

So that's the management. Like yeah like how they're happening when they're happening versus maybe talking to your mom every day. Maybe you could talk to her every other day just a little bit more space, whatever. You sort of need to get the relationship more calibrated to what? I don't know what you're willing to invest in it anymore.

Yeah. Okay. So that's the managed part. So it's like you want this person in your life. Um, maybe this is for women who are still married. There's some some challenges and they need to start to create some more space and manage. Hey, I will or won't be talked to like this. I will or won't have that same fight again.

I may require doing something like therapy to help manage their relationship. Yes. Okay. And then after manage. What would be the most likely next one for the women of divorce land here. So swap. Swap I love because I think it's things that we face every day. One of my favorite spreads in the book is page 107, where I give all these different ideas because I think women fall especially trap to comparison.

And so instead of like comparing ourselves to other people on social media that look like they have the perfect happy family, but they probably don't. Spoiler alert. Yeah, right. It's can we use it for inspiration? So swap can be swapping and kind of reframing negative habits or behaviors or things we tell ourselves.

Right. So that could just kind of can show how we show up in the situation. And if you can't reframe it, maybe it can't be reframed right? Then you might move to mute. Like mute would if I'm thinking in a very literal sense for divorce land maybe separation. Mhm. Right. Like you're, you're going to take a break and see how that break makes you feel.

Not hearing them all the time. Like just mute their presence and you're like just a mute I think has this idea that it's not forever. It's for like if you mute the TV, it's for a minute, for a 20 minutes, whatever, and you'll come back to it. But the mute is for, for a bit to see how that space feels. Yeah. Okay.

You need that break. You need that space. And sometimes that time and perspective or that time and space can give you more perspective. And then if block, you know, that would be like divorce. That's ending the relationship. Yeah. Well and that's the, the ultimate unsubscribe. Oh that's what I know. Whenever you first, whenever I first got around the concept to is this idea.

And I mean what do you have to say to this? This concept, as opposed to like the Sheryl Sandberg lean in, right. Like this idea of I don't know. I'm not saying that the two are opposed, but I think we get a lot of messaging of like dig in and work hard and etc. versus this sort of opt out. And do you see a distinction between those two or any kind of a tension between those two polls?

Yeah, I think the idea with unsubscribe is that when you start to remove what's not meant for you, you make space for what is. So I'll tell you, when I started to remove narcissistic, toxic people from my life, what started to happen was my existing healthy relationships really started to flourish. And then I welcomed in more of that.

Well, and I that's something that I've learned in life. I think about it in my own life, in my schedule. I'm always, always, always a schedule. You know, historically been scheduled to the hilt at all times and double booked in a day. Multiple times. Sometimes triple. Right. Um, and what I've learned is when you do that, you don't create any margin.

And in business, we always want some. We're talking about margin is like the money. The profit. Right. Um, and in your life, you need margin, uh, so that you can have something to put someplace else. But. And the things that's why I think a lot of times our no's become as important or if not more important than our.

Yes, because otherwise, if you're yes to everything and you're always full all the time, you don't leave any room to receive. And so I think of it like having full hands, like if you have full hands, God can't give you something else. And so having a little bit of room, um, allows for the ability to receive.

But I do think that that takes some bravery, because there may very well be a minute, a week, a month, a year where you've still got that space where you got rid of maybe this frenemy that felt like a best friend, but you really realized they weren't for you, that they weren't really cheering for you. Um, that they were sort of like keeping you close to make themselves feel better for some reason.

Um, but it may be a while before you fill up that friend gap. And same thing with your marriage. It may be a while before you have that significant other, before you have that, um, boyfriend or girlfriend, whoever, whatever. Again, and I think it takes a lot of bravery to be able to say, okay, I'm not really sure if I'm going to get anything else to fill back up my cup for a minute, but whatever it is, I'm going to make some room because I'm trusting, and I guess that that's something to what you're saying.

Jenny to is this inherent trust that the removal, the subscription, like removing stuff is going to allow room and and the good stuff is going to come, I guess. Is there like, I don't know if it's even faith. I don't mean that in a religious way, but like faith trust component that you think people you would, you would suggest they would have that something good is going to come to, to fill its place.

Yeah. Because what keeps coming to my mind as you're talking about that is that when everything feels urgent, nothing can actually be important. Oh, yeah. I learned that lesson at least once a day. Pretty much. And what can you say more? What do you mean, like in this context about that? Yeah. So if you're constantly just putting out fires, right.

If you're double booked, triple booked and you're constantly everything's urgent. Everything needs attention right now. You can't actually filter out and focus on what really matters and what's really important for you. And nobody else can determine that except for you. And so I always encourage people when you're going through this space.

It sounds counterintuitive. I always tell people, spend time with yourself, not just by yourself, but with yourself. Do things with yourself. Take yourself out for coffee. Take yourself out for dinner. I do solo vacations now because I experience it in a really enlightening way of everything that is just for me.

You start to learn what you like, what you don't like. Like, I don't like going to museums, right? So? So I skip the museums and I focus on other things when I travel. But you really learn yourself. And when you learn yourself, you learn what you like, what you don't like, what you're willing to tolerate, what you're not.

And that's just going to set you up for better positioning for what is in alignment with this version of you right now. Yeah. And I think that's a thing that women especially like if they've been having kids, um, for all of their 20s and 30s or whatever. You know, I had my first, um, child when I was 23, so I was just a little baby pumpkin having these little baby pumpkins.

Um, and I've had kids around. I have now. I'm divorced for my three big kids out and remarried and have a five year old. So I have an almost 19 year old all the way down to a five year old. So I've been having children around me for a very long time, bless their hearts in my heart. Um, but I think that like, part of what happens along the way, and what I find with a lot of women who share that sort of similar trajectory, is we didn't spend any time getting to know ourselves.

We didn't spend any time finding our own self-worth and our own self-respect. I didn't even know what any of those words meant. Really? In my 20s? Like, what does that reassure? Okay. Um, and I think that that's part of what these big life moments can do, like you experienced and a divorce can do, can sort of force you to do that work that maybe you didn't do when you were younger.

Because if you really knew yourself, if you really knew you're not a museum gal, if you were really comfortable doing all these things on your own, then what you allow in, you'd be a lot more. Could have been a lot more selective with because you you knew what didn't align. And I think that's really important because a lot of us don't know.

We're just figuring it out. And, you know, I grew up in a little bitty small town, and I thought you'd go to college, and then you get married and then you have babies. That's it. It's like I never even considered literally for one minute that I would not have kids. Like, I didn't even think about that as a choice.

Now, as an adult, I'm like, that is a very valid decision. Children are a lot and I love mine and I would not give them back, but it is a very valid decision in my own personal opinion, not to have any, because there's a lot that goes into it that I didn't foresee, but I didn't even I didn't make that conscious choice.

I just was doing it. And it worked out because I got these amazing kids. But, um, I think that that advice for all women, if you're listening and if you're a young pumpkin or somebody who's just thinking about this for the first time and you're divorced to take this time, um, and use this space that you make, be it from a swap, a mute, a marriage or a block, hashtag divorce.

Um, and using that time to get to know yourself. And I think that that, y'all, is the theme that we've heard in a few episodes this season is that is the way you don't keep repeating these mistakes, because once you really know and hopefully love and respect yourself, it's upon that foundation. You can make grown girl decisions about who you let into your life and under what circumstances, because then what happens is, like, you've seen that stuff on on social media where it's like, you know, you meet some girl and she's like, like the guys or these guys are making these funny jokes about these women.

It's like, you're not going to mess up my piece. You're like, chewed wrong, and you can get out because I have this house and this stuff and these trips and these friends and these clothes and whatever. Um, and they can do that because they've gotten so clear on who they are. And so I think that's the work to do is the unsubscribe gets you to one point and then the next piece is okay.

And so what are you going to do with this room and how can you do the work with the support of friends, girlfriends, our community in the circle, um, people, you know, online in real life, hopefully therapists, um, maybe your divorce lawyer, at least if you work with him, prevail and make a new sort of decision.

So I love that for all of us now. Jenny, we ask everybody who comes on the show a few of the same questions and what I just always love this one. Um, is what your dominant thought has been. So, like, what have you been thinking about worrying about? I'm happy about the last few days. Few weeks. What's been on your mind?

Well, it's actually something that came up in this conversation. Ooh. So. And I'm so I'm glad we got the opportunity to chat about this. So we talked a lot about, like, who you are. And so I think that is the question I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with. They're like, oh, who are you?

And people are like, oh, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. For me, I might start out by saying, well, I'm a keynote speaker, I'm a bestselling author, I'm a podcast host. No, none of that is who you are. All of that is what you do. Mhm. They're labels. They don't define who you are. Can I ask you, Jenny Prim? Who are you? I mean, not to put me on the spot or anything.

Hannah. I know I'm doing it. I'm a spot. Put her on her. Yeah, I mean, I'll do it next. I think for me, it would be. I am somebody who helps people

01:38:58.820 — 01:39:04.820

heal and share their story through the impact of sharing my own. Who are you?

01:39:07.180 — 01:39:11.180

I am brave and bold.

01:39:12.820 — 01:39:16.020

Fierce as fuck. I wouldn't mess with me.

01:39:17.620 — 01:39:23.700

I'm kind and generous. I'm a leader. I always know what to do.

01:39:24.780 — 01:39:29.780

I'm not afraid. And I will speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

01:39:30.820 — 01:39:32.220

Um. I'm wise.

01:39:34.820 — 01:39:40.659

I'm impulsive. I mean, I have there's some negative things I could say for sure. Um, I'm a poet

01:39:41.870 — 01:39:44.830

is a speaker and movement leader.

01:39:45.910 — 01:46:23.630

See how easy it is though, for us to go into? Even when I was reflecting back on what I said. Oh, a movement leader like no other. I'm a speaker, right? Like we go into things that we do. Yeah, but like at, you know, like at my core, I would say I'm a I'm empathetic. I'm caring. I'm kind. Right. Like, a lot of the I'm clear.

I'm direct. Yeah. You know, again these are things about us. But and I think that they all do make up who we are. But I think there's this movement that I want people to not be so caught up with titles. Right. Because I was constantly chasing titles in corporate or, you know, maybe you're chasing the Mrs. Degree, right?

Like, because, well, it's a, it's a, it's an abdicated responsibility. Like, if I have this badge of this degree, this title or whatever, then society says I'm worth it. I've made it. And I don't have to decide whether I'm worth it or I've made it to me. I can, I can, you know, farm that out. Yes, but society doesn't know what's best for you.

You know what's best for you. Nobody knows what's best for you. Better than you. Yeah. You know anybody listening to this? If you're, like, driving to your car or you're at the gym or doing dishes or whatever. Like, I want to ask you to just think in your own mind. Like, if I were sitting there and I was just asking, like, who are you, dear reader, dear listener here.

Who are you? Like, what would you say? And if you have a hard time listing anything else that either isn't mean and ugly. And don't you talk ugly about my friends. Um, or derivative of everybody else in your life. I'm a teacher, I'm a doctor. I'm at whatever. Um, I think that's a really good indication to spend some time getting to know yourself.

More like I didn't used to be able to just answer and say all those things. I would have said exactly that until I got divorced. And absolutely every single one of my titles and my identities were stripped from me. And like, I basically had nothing left. There wasn't anything underneath. Um, I mean, there's a lot of me that's still the same person now.

But at that particular point, like you explain those situations, what they do to you. I was a little nub of a human like I was. There was nothing left. I didn't have anything left. So. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Um, okay. Another thing. So the title of the show is not saving it for later. So that and unsubscribe.

It's like we're just wearing different clothes. Although Jenny's the color is blue, so I wore blue for her today. Um, but, you know, whenever you heard that or when you think of the concept not saving it for later, does that evoke anything in you? Is there anything you realize you save for later that maybe you might be inspired?

Not to now? Yeah. I mean, not saving it for later. It's such a great title. Um, but I mean, and it really does go, like you said, hand in hand with. We hang onto things for too long, right? Like, it's the whole concept of. You don't ever hear anybody like, how many people in your come into your divorce practice and they're like, oh, man, you know, maybe I should have waited a little longer.

Now everyone's like, man, I should have done this sooner. Yeah, right. Yeah, I should have done this sooner. So if there's anything that you're thinking about that you've been pondering on and you know, you're thinking, you know, should I stay, right? Like take action. Right. We have to take action, whatever that is for you.

Because we don't tend to be like, oh, man, I wish I would have stayed in that toxic job longer. It's like, oh man, I wish I would have done that sooner. Yeah. And I think that it's like, what could the next right move be? And maybe that's just for listening, doing that exercise of who am I? Maybe it's going to coffee this week and carving out 30 minutes by yourself to do that.

Maybe it's having that conversation. Maybe it's making a list of the relationships that came to mind we were talking about today that might need some subscription techniques. We need to be doing some of those things that Jenny mentioned. Okay. Well, if there is one piece of advice, Jenny, that you would give the women of divorce land, what would that be?

What would you tell them to do? Oh, so I lost my dad on Valentine's Day 2021, and he was my guy. And so anytime I get a chance to talk about there are there's the good guys, right? Yeah. There are. Oh, my God, we love good guys around here. Yeah. This is not like, man bashing. Um, so he had these things I call dad isms where it's like they're not dad jokes, but they're.

There's those sayings. Yeah. Little sayings. They're, like, poorly timed but not meant to be funny. And we always, as kids would be like, what does that even mean, dad? And so the, his most famous one was, you are the architect of your own destiny. Well, that's true and it is true. But how I kind of reframe it now is we can't always control what happens, but we get to control how we respond.

Mhm mhm. And that's I think a big foundation of like yeah sometimes we do get handed a shit sandwich. Yeah. Do you have to eat it. It's like that. It reminds me of that Viktor Frankl quote, which is badly paraphrased, where it's like between stimulus and response. There is a space and therein lies your freedom.

And that's like with your spouse that you're divorcing. You can't control what they're going to say and what they're going to do, but there's a little bit of room before you react, and that's where you get to make your choice. And that's where you have the freedom is to make a different choice. My, my dad had a lot of sayings too.

Um, he passed away a few years ago. And his the one that automatically comes to my mind that sticks with me to this day is if a job's worth doing, a job's worth doing. Right. And so I that was always coming up. We had this one house that had this really big, long back porch, and me and my sister's job was to go out and sweep this longest back porch.

And I remember he'd come back out and check the job, and I'd have been like something in the corner that I didn't do, and I'd be like, oh, dad, who cares? That's like one pine needle. Whatever Hannah Job's worth doing, job's worth doing, right? So you'll see me even now, to this day, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get the mayonnaise to the edge of the bread.

I'm gonna get the swept in the edge of the garage, that whole thing. So that's great. We had some of those fun things to remember our dad by, but yeah. All right, Jenny, well, thank you so much for doing this with us. I know you're down from way far. Are you like Minnesota? No. Michigan. Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Oh, yeah. Because we met, right? Is all of that was going down, um, in Minneapolis, um, earlier this year. So, um, I hope your town is healing. Healing. I was like, what is the word? What do I even have? Healing. That's the right word. Healing? Yeah. Oh, man. Uh, well, thank you so much for doing this, Jenny.

Thanks for being on. And everybody you can follow. What's the best places to follow find you. We'll put it in the show notes. But any place you want to send everybody who's going to want to follow your stuff and and stay, keep along for the journey here. Yeah. Everything is my name. So Jenny Premji, I n and y p r I e m.

That's my website to book me to speak. I hang out mostly on socials, on Instagram, and then I do have a pretty robust, um, YouTube channel. Oh, awesome. Okay, well, we'll check it out. Thank you so much. Thank you.