AMANDA EP FINAL.txt

English (US)

00:00:00.880 — 00:02:17.570 · Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to Not Saving It for later. I'm your host, Hannah Hembree Bell. This is a podcast for guiding women through divorce and beyond. I'm really excited about our guest today, Amanda Deal. She's been a friend of mine for over a decade and a client of mine twice. She told me I could say that. So stay tuned for today's episode.

Amanda, thank you so much for joining me. Now, before I even get started, um, I just want to make sure everybody understands that. Yes, I am a lawyer. Yes. And you've been my client twice. Yes. And you've already agreed before we had this episode that I could talk about all our things. Right. Okay. So I have to say that because of of privilege and everything, and people might feel kind of weird that I'm, like, spilling the full consent.

Yeah. Spilling the tea. Okay, so for those of you who don't have the privilege of knowing Amanda, you are in for a real treat. Uh, Amanda is a mom of two darling children. She has been divorced twice, so she has had double the fun. Um, and she one of the fun and surprising things about her is she is such a dry wire.

Uh, basically, like Joanna Gaines, um, it meets San Antonio. She lives in San Antonio. Um, and we've known each other as friends and then as client and lawyer and then in a new way, which is kind of like a plot twist, we'll say, for the end. So, Amanda, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Did I ever get any fun?

I don't think so. Interesting. Okay, so I, Amanda, when I think about the women of divorced land who are listening and we'll be listening to this show, I think of you and in like, marketing and sales. You know, I have the law firm. One of the things you're taught to think about is the avatar. And the avatar is like, who the person is that you're connecting with.

And so I always think of you as someone who has such a sweet and great heart, who's in the middle of or going through, like, all the Amanda's along the way. Okay. So could you tell us a little bit about like. Just kind of start at the beginning maybe. Tell everybody a little bit about how we knew each other and then how, like divorce came into your world and where you ended up, like maybe just kind of a high level view so people can connect with where you are in the story.

00:02:17.610 — 00:02:31.610 · Speaker 2

Oh, gosh. Okay. So start with the first one. Yeah. The first one. Yeah. So we know each other through church over over ten years ago I want to say I was doing the math probably 13, 14 years ago.

00:02:31.610 — 00:02:33.810 · Speaker 1

And is that would you have been being a teacher then?

00:02:33.850 — 00:02:42.850 · Speaker 2

No, I was 19, so I was in college, right? I was in college and I had your kids in, in Sunday school, right?

00:02:42.850 — 00:02:43.850 · Speaker 1

I already had three.

00:02:43.890 — 00:03:10.530 · Speaker 2

You had three kids in Sunday school? I was right out of high school. Um, not married yet, I think. So. The kids were in Sunday. Your kids were in Sunday school with me, and, um, we got connected because your husband at the time had was on leadership at the church, and he interviewed my then fiance and me for the position of him being a pastor at the church.

00:03:10.570 — 00:03:23.490 · Speaker 1

I remember you just being so darling and so full of life. And like, if I recall, you didn't grow up going to church type stuff. Yeah. And so it was I remember that's how I knew, like, it was fresh and new to you.

00:03:23.490 — 00:03:30.250 · Speaker 2

It was fresh and it was new and it was all like a whole different world. Very naive. Just a little Bambi walking around.

00:03:30.290 — 00:03:42.490 · Speaker 1

Well, and so you talked about you and your then fiance. So tell us, like, how old were you when you met the the guy that you married and, like, how old were y'all when you got married? Like, what was the deal?

00:03:42.530 — 00:04:01.700 · Speaker 2

Yeah. So I was 19 when we met, and we met through church two, and we got married. I graduated college with my, um, interdisciplinary Studies degree at 21, and we got married literally a week later. And, um, yeah, we thought it would be happily ever after.

00:04:03.060 — 00:04:04.900 · Speaker 2

Nobody ever gets married to get divorced.

00:04:04.940 — 00:04:27.300 · Speaker 1

Yeah. You know, when I the day I got married, I remember thinking to myself, well, I guess if this doesn't work out, I could just get divorced. So people say that. But I always joke like, well, it was definitely on just as a plot ruiner. If you are getting married in that day thinking, well, if this doesn't work, I should just get divorced, go ahead and turn around on your high heels and walk right back out the door.

00:04:27.340 — 00:04:28.860 · Speaker 2

I learn that in a second time.

00:04:28.940 — 00:04:49.420 · Speaker 1

Mhm. Okay, more to come. There's a second time. So okay. So you got married. I'm similar. I met my ex-husband when I was in I guess when I was 20 I think, and was married at 21 right before I turned 22. So we were just babies and, and pretty soon thereafter you started having kids, right?

00:04:49.420 — 00:04:52.180 · Speaker 2

We did. We had, um, our daughter.

00:04:53.780 — 00:05:12.740 · Speaker 2

Two years later. So we had been married for about a year and then got pregnant and then had my daughter. And then, um, my son was born 21 months later. So super quick, 202. You know, I taught and then stay at home. Mom, I was living the life I had, everything I ever wanted.

00:05:12.780 — 00:05:24.140 · Speaker 1

Okay. So you okay? So you graduated. You had this interdisciplinary studies degree immediately get married, you become a teacher. Hmm. Okay. And as a teacher, what kind of teaching?

00:05:24.180 — 00:05:54.020 · Speaker 2

I taught elementary school. Okay, so, um, third. Fourth grade. Yeah. Public school. And then, you know, in in Christian Bubbles, you tend to have you tend to have the women wants to stay home. Right. The the mom wants to stay home and be the homemaker and stay at home mom and the husband works. And in that case, we were in ministry.

So me staying home and doing like the pastor's wife thing was kind of like, I wanted to do that. I almost found my identity in that, and it didn't work well.

00:05:54.020 — 00:06:48.070 · Speaker 1

And I think that I'm so glad you said that, because when you're a baby, getting married and having babies, your identity cooking ain't done. And I learned that same thing, right? We just have so much in common in this way, because I think that a lot of people spent their 20s finding themselves, finding their identity, trying on different partners to see what they liked in a spouse, in a mate, in a life partner.

They tried on different identities for themselves. And I think what you and I tried on was wife and mom. And those are, you know, allegedly maybe supposed to be lifelong identities. Did you feel at the time versus now, like, did you feel that you were ready to get married when you did it? Like, did you have thought about it at the time.

00:06:48.070 — 00:07:00.030 · Speaker 2

I look back now and don't even recognize the person that I was at that age. Like completely different person. Um,

00:07:01.550 — 00:07:24.830 · Speaker 2

there's you're 21. You're I was a new believer, which means I had lived my life one way and then came into this new world living at a completely different way. And so I just fell into everything that you're supposed to do, which isn't necessarily bad. But I wasn't ready for it, I didn't understand.

00:07:25.390 — 00:07:33.870 · Speaker 1

For me, I'll say how it was for me. I've obviously thought a lot about this. Yeah. Having the divorce law firm serving Austin in San Antonio, and I

00:07:35.190 — 00:09:09.360 · Speaker 1

have spent a lot of time thinking about those decisions I made, at least for me. I, I don't know that I was awake, like, in consciousness enough to even really fully realized what I was doing. There was no pressure. It wasn't like I was bamboozled in terms of that. Someone, you know, I had to get married because someone made me.

I wanted to do it, but I gave it about as much consideration as I think I should get a puppy. Like, you're out at the store and there's cute puppies in the Walmart parking lot in one of them pin things. And so you you get this puppy and say, I think I'll have a puppy now. Like you think about it like, okay, what I really want to know.

Okay. Yeah, that's how much thought I put into it. And, and again, sort of the inertia you're talking about, like, I grew up going Southern Baptist Church and what you do is you go off to college and then you get your master's degree and you get married and you have kids and. No, no, no. And so it was very within my, I guess, cultural experience to go off to college.

That's where I met my now ex-husband and got married. And then it was sort of the years year started to pass. And for me, Amanda, I wonder if this is true for you. For me, having kids when you got little tiny babies, you don't have time to think about your identity when you're wiping poopy booties. Okay, so in changing diapers.

So for me, I wasn't thinking about my identity, but it's when some of the the survival needs with little tiny babies started to subside, that I started to wake up a little bit and go, hmm.

00:09:10.080 — 00:09:11.320 · Speaker 3

Wait a minute.

00:09:11.960 — 00:09:45.800 · Speaker 1

I'm walking on eggshells. I'm kind of miserable. I'm not looking forward to anything anymore. I don't recognize who I am anymore. So for you, that was my experience for you. So you're you're married? Um, you've got these tiny babies. You're being a preacher wife kind of situation. Was there a an awakening maybe as a kids got a little bit older.

Did you have a similar sort of identity wake up or did something else start at the beginning of the end for you?

00:09:45.840 — 00:10:20.040 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think for me, I found so much of my identity in being a wife and being a mom that that's all I wanted to do. So I focused more on what that looked like than what that actually meant. So I was it was how it looked from the outside. It was the perception of everything had to be almost perfect to where nothing was perfect like the marriage within the house.

Looking back now, I can see, oh my God, that's awful. And it did erupt.

00:10:20.880 — 00:10:36.080 · Speaker 1

Uh, before we talk about the big crisis. Um, could you talk a little bit about what it looked like when things weren't great? You say, behind closed doors. It wasn't perfect, because I think that a lot of people considering getting divorced.

00:10:36.280 — 00:10:37.600 · Speaker 2

I don't realize how bad it is.

00:10:37.640 — 00:11:17.160 · Speaker 1

Right? They don't know because they don't. People don't talk about what happens behind closed doors when they're in the middle of it. And we're taught at church not to say that you respect your husband and whatever. So you're experiencing that alone. So could you talk about, in case someone listening is in that phase, trying to decide is what I'm experiencing normal?

Is this what all marriage is? So what was happening before the big sort of crisis moment that that you would describe as not perfect behind closed doors? And let me say this. Yeah, I'll say this. I know now that you're in a very different place with your first ex-husband.

00:11:17.200 — 00:11:19.800 · Speaker 2

You probably also remember things differently than I do.

00:11:20.400 — 00:11:38.770 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, and I guess what I mean is, I know now you're in a good place. He was a kid, too, right? He was a kid. You were a kid. So in in saying what it was like then, I don't think people have to think, oh, he's the worst. Just what was your experience like at the time before things kind of erupted.

00:11:38.810 — 00:12:12.330 · Speaker 2

Okay. Yeah, we were kids. I was we were kids having kids. And it. That doesn't work out when, um, you're selfish and unhappy. So our marriage looked like straight survival. Um, I think we did everything right from the biblical standard. And we did everything right in everybody's eyes. So then, as it felt like it was unraveling for me, I just tried to grab the yarn and put it back together.

00:12:12.450 — 00:12:29.730 · Speaker 1

Well. And is it like, were you what was it like for you then? Were you feeling unhappy? Was there yelling? Was there selfishness? Was there a lack of intimacy? Like, what are the markers that existed then that made, you know, the marriage was in trouble?

00:12:29.770 — 00:12:53.609 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I knew for a long time that we weren't happy, but there was no way out. And I don't say that as. As we consider divorce and we weren't going to do it. It was just like, that's not an option. You don't divorce in the church. Um, and if you do, it's for only a couple of reasons. And so

00:12:54.650 — 00:13:02.169 · Speaker 2

the unhappiness kept building in the marriage, which drew us apart and led

00:13:03.170 — 00:13:04.810 · Speaker 2

us to focus on other things.

00:13:04.810 — 00:13:16.010 · Speaker 1

And so when you're being drawn apart, like, what does that look like? Like everybody going to bed at different times. You're not speaking to each other like what was happening back there.

00:13:16.050 — 00:13:39.740 · Speaker 2

It was such a lonely time. We truly were great parents together. And I would say we were even friends, but we hated. We had a hatred towards each other that was unspoken in the way that I was disrespectful, in the way that he would, um, emotionally neglect, I guess, but it for it looked like, um,

00:13:41.620 — 00:13:56.860 · Speaker 2

coming home. Here's the kids, I go away, you take the kids, do the bath time. I do the dinner. We do all the mom and dad things. You put your headphones in, I take a shower, I lay in bed, and you go to the gym like we were just.

00:13:57.620 — 00:13:58.980 · Speaker 1

Ships passing for the night.

00:13:59.940 — 00:14:01.700 · Speaker 2

And that's not a marriage.

00:14:02.660 — 00:14:22.300 · Speaker 1

And had you before things were erupting. So you said you felt because of the culture, the church situation, you felt sort of trapped and stuck as not like we're talking about divorce. Just there's no way out. God hates divorce. You're not supposed to get divorced. So it just sort of is what it is. Had you just sort of resigned to that being your life?

00:14:22.460 — 00:14:50.820 · Speaker 2

Yes and no. I think I didn't realize how bad it was. I did not realize until our world came crashing down how bad the marriage actually was. I just thought, this is marriage. I didn't have a good example as a marriage, so I just thought it was normal. So I, I knew to a certain extent that we weren't happy. And I knew he wasn't happy, but I didn't know

00:14:52.180 — 00:14:57.380 · Speaker 2

that that meant our family was going to be broken apart.

00:14:58.740 — 00:15:32.420 · Speaker 1

I think a lot of women, myself included back then, sort of do do buy into this story that, oh, this is just what marriage is. The stuff on the radio, the stuff in TV and in movies, that's all like propaganda. Basically, it's all fake. Just settle in and grow up, honey. This is real life. Like and resigned to that spot.

Do you think that's what you were doing? Is sort of like, well, I guess this is what it is I do.

00:15:32.420 — 00:16:12.140 · Speaker 2

And I think that's all I wanted ever was to be a mom and a wife. So I got that. So what else was there left to do? In one way, my life was over because I got what I wanted. I accomplished everything. That was how my brain was not fully developed. That was the end goal, right? So I get that. And I'm at this place and it's still empty.

There's there's still there's unhappiness in your marriage, in your house. You don't want to come home. You know, he's unhappy. There's not communication. Um, there's going places without you. There's fighting all the time.

00:16:12.260 — 00:17:51.110 · Speaker 1

I think for me, the way I knew or the way like looking back now, that I would say, are warning signs that your marriage is headed for a potential disaster break down. Or maybe it should be headed for a breakdown. Disaster would be. I stopped listening to songs on the radio because it was like, that's BS. Yeah, I'd been fed a line of goods.

If Taylor Swift would have been a big thing back then, I wouldn't have listened to You Belong With Me, right? That would not have happened. I wouldn't have been able to hear it. And the thing for me, I remember thinking, was going through the motions in my brain of like, okay, so what's life? The kind of this existential question, okay, I've got I've married, I got the kids.

All right. I'm like literally 26 years old. I've done all the things and now what? Okay, well, so then it's about work. Okay, so I'm gonna work, I'm gonna make some money, and then eventually. Okay, fast forward thought experiment. Right. Fast forward. I'm gonna retire. And then when I retire, what I'm going to be doing.

Well, I'm going to be spending a lot more time with him. Yeah, that doesn't sound good to me. And then it was like, oh, no, What is there to look forward to? Like what's the point? So for me, the thought experiments led to this conclusion of almost nihilism. Like a bit of like, um, what's the point? Quick dissension was possible anyway, to a big depression.

Um. For me. Did anything like that come up for you?

00:17:51.790 — 00:17:52.750 · Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

00:17:53.830 — 00:18:00.870 · Speaker 2

Oh, yeah. And I still ride the waves of those things. And I'm almost seven years removed.

00:18:01.030 — 00:18:02.350 · Speaker 1

What do you mean, ride the waves?

00:18:02.390 — 00:18:43.600 · Speaker 2

There's still triggers or depression that comes in anxiety. I woke up yesterday and was like, oh my gosh, nothing's happening. Like I'm not being chased by a bear. But that's how it feels. And it takes you back to a certain moment. Or for me, when our marriage was falling apart. There's a one space in my house that I remember getting a text message, and I was in that corner of my room, and it took me probably three years to be able to walk by that place without getting, like, chills or nauseous.

Mm. Because it takes you back to that memory and just consumes your body and it makes you physically sick.

00:18:44.360 — 00:19:02.280 · Speaker 1

Well, and was any part of you before the sort of big crisis moment was any part of you, um, thinking about, like, how can I get out of this? How can I get divorced? Like, do you think if the big thing hadn't happened that you would have left?

00:19:02.320 — 00:19:04.920 · Speaker 2

No, we would still be married.

00:19:04.960 — 00:19:33.520 · Speaker 1

Let's go back to that girl. Like knowing all the things you know now. And she's there. There's been no crisis. She's miserable. They're not communicating. He's doing some kind of shady stuff, you know, being weird with this phone, maybe going to the gym at night alone. And would you tell her anything different before the crisis?

Would you tell her? Yes. This church says you gotta stay, so you better stay. Like what? Would you go back and tell that you.

00:19:33.560 — 00:19:36.600 · Speaker 2

I feel like I'm talking to so many different versions of myself.

00:19:36.640 — 00:19:41.200 · Speaker 1

Get that one? Yeah. The one who's got two babies is miserable.

00:19:41.280 — 00:20:02.360 · Speaker 2

Got two babies. I have a good husband. I have a good family, a good home. I have all of the things that I wanted with such a deep pit of nothing in me. And because of that, I. I was miserable. So everything around me was miserable. I would tell that person.

00:20:04.480 — 00:20:05.480 · Speaker 2

I don't even know.

00:20:05.760 — 00:20:08.200 · Speaker 1

Would you tell her to stick it out? Tough it out, sis.

00:20:08.320 — 00:20:09.040 · Speaker 2

No.

00:20:09.440 — 00:20:10.160 · Speaker 1

What would you say?

00:20:10.160 — 00:20:39.040 · Speaker 2

I wouldn't, I think I would, I would say what I was, I was you're told a lot of things when you're going through a divorce, you're. You're told from so many different angles And perspectives of people. And I think it was you that told me, pick three people and trust those three people with your story and your choice and who you're going to let pour into you.

Because if I'm talking to this person and this person and this person, they're all telling me these different things, then my mind is like, I don't know what to do.

00:20:39.080 — 00:20:41.000 · Speaker 1

But that was good advice yesterday. Me okay.

00:20:41.040 — 00:20:43.120 · Speaker 2

That was yeah, that was seven years ago. You.

00:20:43.160 — 00:20:43.520 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

00:20:43.560 — 00:20:51.280 · Speaker 2

So that was that was what I kind of did. And I chose, you know, from different people.

00:20:51.760 — 00:20:58.960 · Speaker 1

Well, you chose to share your story with them as a way maybe to seek guidance. So maybe you tell her to seek guidance.

00:20:59.400 — 00:20:59.880 · Speaker 2

Sooner.

00:21:00.160 — 00:21:01.400 · Speaker 1

From trusted folks.

00:21:01.440 — 00:22:00.609 · Speaker 2

Yes. And I somebody along the way because it was debating. Do I get divorced? Do I not get divorced? I don't want to be divorced. Nobody wants to be divorced. But I want so I but I don't want to stay the way that this marriage is. I know neither of us are happy. We've both outgrown the situation. But we have two kids.

You don't want to do that to those kids. And then you have all this guilt. Then you have the shame of a divorce. Then you have the stigma of, now I have a broken family. So it's so many things that just spiral. And for me it was like, okay, well, when my daughter is 21 years old and she comes to me with the situation I'm in, what would I tell her?

Do I want my my kids to grow up in an unhappy home where their model of a marriage is? We just can't stand each other and we avoid each other and we don't get along. Or do I want them to see two happy parents

00:22:01.970 — 00:22:07.290 · Speaker 2

separately that love them and are happier apart?

00:22:07.770 — 00:22:25.250 · Speaker 1

I think, um, that for me, one of the questions that is so helpful for people at that stage is to say, what would you tell your daughter if she came to you? Would you tell her? Stick it out, sis. Life's a bitch.

00:22:27.250 — 00:23:26.060 · Speaker 1

And I think that's the advice that we give a lot of women, especially young women in the middle of it. Now, I think sometimes it comes from well-intentioned places. Like you're tired, you got little tiny babies. And I always say, like, don't make a permanent decision on a temporary circumstance. Like when you got two, two kids under two.

Maybe not the time to decide about the marriage. I mean, it might be depending, but is it postpartum or is it just the doldrums and like hard grunt work of raising toddlers, etc.? So I think that that's a question. Maybe that's what you would tell yourself, like or ask the question like, is this what you would want for your daughter or for your son?

Of course, yeah, for either of them. Okay. So fast forward, there is a big crisis event. And obviously I know your relationship with your ex is very different now, so we don't have to go all the way into it. But but I guess, is it fair to say a big trigger event occurred to you, um, that made the whole world crumble down on top of you?

00:23:26.100 — 00:23:43.020 · Speaker 2

Absolutely. Yeah. We were so young and so engulfed in what we thought we needed our life to look like. And when you do that, and you keep putting a mask on every single day, you forget who you are. And then one day, the mask comes off.

00:23:43.820 — 00:23:45.740 · Speaker 1

And when that happened,

00:23:46.860 — 00:24:05.020 · Speaker 1

if you're willing to do this, what was it like for you? Like, so you you get this information and how did you feel in that moment and then like, what was it like for you? Right. Kind of in the immediate aftermath of, oh my God, my family is destroyed. Feeling.

00:24:05.060 — 00:24:05.820 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:24:06.020 — 00:25:30.820 · Speaker 1

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00:25:32.060 — 00:25:35.260 · Speaker 2

It was earth shattering.

00:25:36.500 — 00:25:43.860 · Speaker 2

It was like fall to the floor. I think I'm dying shattering type of situation. Um,

00:25:45.580 — 00:25:51.180 · Speaker 2

and there's so much guilt and shame you feel from that.

00:25:51.660 — 00:25:55.180 · Speaker 4

Say more about that. Why did you feel guilty? Why did you feel ashamed?

00:25:56.340 — 00:26:25.670 · Speaker 2

I think guilt and shame are two different things, and I've had to learn that the same thing. Difference with empathy and sympathy, right? There was a lot of sympathy happening around our family when we went through a divorce, but that wasn't necessarily a good thing. It was the empathy and the people that were willing to sit with you and say, okay, we're going to get through it.

You're crying. I'm crying. Not like, oh, honey, sorry. Do you want a casserole? Mm. No. You know, but it is the death of something. You're grieving.

00:26:27.030 — 00:26:44.630 · Speaker 2

I grieved it was the death of a person that was still alive. And that's so confusing when you have to see that person every single day that you still love. Because you you don't just snap out of it, but, you know,

00:26:46.150 — 00:27:17.510 · Speaker 2

it's not a healthy marriage. It's not where you should be. It's not right. And you have to get over the hump of moving on. But in that moving on, you're breaking up your family. You're giving your kids two homes, two different Christmases, two different Thanksgivings, maybe a step mom, maybe a stepdad crying at night.

And so you're, you carry that weight of, oh, you're just another stigma. You're just another divorced family.

00:27:17.910 — 00:27:34.390 · Speaker 1

Is that okay? So I love I love the dichotomy. You made the difference between guilt and shame. I think people need to hear this. So can you tell us in your own words like what's the difference in those two things? So I think a lot of people don't know the difference. I mean, I'm curious what you're going to say.

00:27:34.590 — 00:27:35.350 · Speaker 2

Me too.

00:27:36.110 — 00:27:39.070 · Speaker 1

So guilt versus.

00:27:39.070 — 00:27:39.750 · Speaker 4

Shame.

00:27:40.510 — 00:28:31.920 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think I've especially years ago, it was guilt, regret and shame. The difference in what those mean, the shame is like, I just picture me walking around with like a blanket over my head, walking through church, and everyone's looking at me. And just like they know, they know that I failed. They know that my marriage is over.

They know my kids, you know. And then you form your own opinions, and then that eats you alive. And then you had this whole big, perfect, happy family until you didn't. So there's the shame of that. And having a failed marriage. I don't think I think anybody that gets divorced experiences shame. I don't think there's a way around it.

00:28:31.960 — 00:28:32.400 · Speaker 4

Hmm.

00:28:33.160 — 00:28:36.560 · Speaker 1

And then how is that different than guilt?

00:28:37.920 — 00:28:46.360 · Speaker 1

So shame is like you've got the blanket over your head. Everyone's looking at you, judging you. When is. What's the difference with that?

00:28:46.360 — 00:28:47.680 · Speaker 4

And feeling guilty.

00:28:48.560 — 00:28:59.240 · Speaker 2

The guilt for me was realizing I had a part in it, I think, and not taking the victim mentality.

00:28:59.600 — 00:29:00.920 · Speaker 1

When did you do that?

00:29:00.960 — 00:29:03.840 · Speaker 2

It took years. It took years.

00:29:03.880 — 00:29:04.320 · Speaker 1

I.

00:29:05.520 — 00:29:27.800 · Speaker 1

absolutely crossed that. It probably took me a lot longer than you. Um, I used to talk about my divorce and even my ex-husband in one way, very like the villain. And I'm the victim. And then another. And something shifted in me of, like, I co-created that marriage. I accepted behaviors that cross boundaries for me.

I wasn't perfect.

00:29:27.800 — 00:29:31.520 · Speaker 2

And I reacted to those behaviors, therefore.

00:29:32.040 — 00:30:03.520 · Speaker 1

But that that typically comes later. Was there was there a guilt like I think of of shame is like sort of an outward drive, like you're thinking if you think about shame, it's like other people looking at you and having a thought versus guilt being something that eats you up internally for maybe some other behavior or some other outcome you wish you would have had.

You feel like something you did made it not so. So maybe it's like shame from others and guilt in the breakup of this, this shattered Perfect reality.

00:30:03.560 — 00:30:30.839 · Speaker 2

Guilt. Guilt for me. Putting it into. I guess a tangible example would be me not being patient and then being a bitch to my husband and then treating him like shit and putting my kids above him and then pushing him so far to leave the house and being like, well, fine, f you. Bye. That would be my guilt. I would have guilt for that.

The shame I would feel would be

00:30:32.400 — 00:30:38.000 · Speaker 2

because of situations in our marriage. It fell apart and there's shame on that.

00:30:38.040 — 00:30:41.680 · Speaker 1

And what about regret? Do you have regret about it?

00:30:42.640 — 00:30:50.720 · Speaker 2

That's so funny. Regrets? Hard for me because I love where I'm at right now. Yeah, and I, I,

00:30:52.080 — 00:30:56.520 · Speaker 2

I'm so glad in, like, a really weird way.

00:30:57.560 — 00:31:25.050 · Speaker 2

That part. Some days I wish this wasn't my story. Some days I really do, but for the most part, I really like who I am now and I it would I. I never liked myself, ever. I didn't like myself as an 18 year old, 19 year old, 20 year old. I shouldn't have gotten married. I didn't even like who I was. Why would I expect somebody else to like me?

Hmm. But it took failure and divorce

00:31:26.570 — 00:31:28.170 · Speaker 2

to figure that out.

00:31:29.290 — 00:31:37.970 · Speaker 2

So I don't. I wish I did things differently for other reasons, but regretting them.

00:31:40.210 — 00:31:42.050 · Speaker 2

I don't think I regret them.

00:31:42.450 — 00:32:32.610 · Speaker 1

You know, most people that I talk to, and I've talked to hundreds or thousands now of people in the divorce universe, in divorce land and regret is not usually the emotion they talk about. Because what I've seen, I always say divorce gives you a choice. You can be bitter or you can be better. You get to choose.

And I guess the sort of people I would associate with choose better and pretty much without fail. Every person I've talked to values the life they created now so much that even though they wish, maybe they had done things differently back then where you might find some regret, they can't use the word regret because they're like, but if I didn't do all those things, I wouldn't have ended up here.

So is that is that what you're saying?

00:32:32.650 — 00:32:33.330 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:32:34.330 — 00:33:06.180 · Speaker 1

I do. Um, okay, so you've gotten this big piece of news. You're feeling ashamed. You're feeling guilty. Um, and did you immediately jump to, like, did you? Let me ask you this. Did you make the connection between. I was miserable, he was miserable. There's this big thing that occurred. And then did any part of you feel relief like, oh, well, now I can get out of this mess?

00:33:06.220 — 00:33:33.699 · Speaker 2

I don't think I ever wanted out of it until I was out of it. So I feel like I was a zombie walking around. I did not know who I was. All I did was take care of babies and try to control everything. Because that's the only thing that I could. All I could do is control. So I walked around unhappy and doing everything I could

00:33:35.140 — 00:33:58.300 · Speaker 2

to just survive that I didn't realize how bad things were. Like, I didn't realize I was unhappy in the marriage. Like, I remember meeting with somebody who was like a mentor and her saying, well, you guys haven't been happy for a while. And I was like, what are you talking about rude, but

00:34:00.180 — 00:34:07.100 · Speaker 2

you can see things from a different perspective. I was so in it and just like lost that my eyes were just not.

00:34:08.580 — 00:34:12.540 · Speaker 2

It's they. I was blind to the reality of it.

00:34:12.659 — 00:34:37.860 · Speaker 1

Well, and I think, you know, 70% of divorces are filed by women. So you're in the minority of I mean, I don't know if it was, it was if it was filed by you or not. Yeah. You filed okay. Yeah. I was like, I can't remember if we did it or not. Um, so it's still filed by you. So I guess you're the majority in that way, but is it is it accurate to say you felt like you kind of didn't even have a choice at that point to get divorced or or had you made the choice, like, okay, I'm done.

00:34:37.860 — 00:34:59.580 · Speaker 2

I think that if we, I think if we would have stayed married, it would have been for the kids. I think we both had a choice. And I chose to file for divorce, um, because I knew that a marriage is a marriage will not work if you're only in it for your kids to stay in one home.

00:35:00.660 — 00:35:09.460 · Speaker 2

It didn't work with my parents. They divorced when I was 23, and I hated our house. They hated each other.

00:35:10.220 — 00:35:18.500 · Speaker 1

So did your experience growing up have a big impact on you deciding to. Okay, this thing happened and I'm going to do something about it.

00:35:18.540 — 00:35:35.140 · Speaker 2

Yeah, because you have that guilt and you have that shame of. I feel so guilty that I'm breaking apart my family. And then I have so much shame that everyone sees my broken family. So if I stay, it's fine. But it's not fine.

00:35:35.180 — 00:35:39.420 · Speaker 1

Who would pay the price if you would have stole my kids? Who else if you would.

00:35:39.620 — 00:35:40.340 · Speaker 2

Well, me?

00:35:40.700 — 00:36:07.550 · Speaker 1

Yeah, but will me stop right there? So many women, they say. Oh, the kids. What about the Amanda who's listening to this. Who's miserable? And she only has one wild and precious life. Yeah. The kids. But what about the her? That baby Amanda, who is miserable and unhappy and emotionally neglected and just hadn't figured herself out.

What about her?

00:36:09.310 — 00:36:56.350 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I think so many people just skip it, and they. Maybe they stay married for the kids, but they also get divorced for the kids. And I just always call out, but what about you? Don't leave yourself out of your own life. And I think the world wants us women to leave ourselves out of our own life, where we serve everybody else.

We stay home, the church, you know, we stay home with the babies and raise the family as the political climate, Lord knows, wants that return to traditional whatever. I think there's so much more. People want women to be left out of their own lives. And so, like, if you're thinking about it, yeah, you could have stayed married for the kids, but who'd suffer them?

But yeah. What about that. You. Now you talk about the guilt and the shame and where you felt like after all of this happened.

00:36:57.510 — 00:37:22.870 · Speaker 1

Do you remember a point where that stopped suffocating you, where you made some progress with the guilt and the shame? I know it's there's probably some part of it that's never, like, fully gone. Yeah, but where it didn't, like, wake you up in the night or made you kind of hide your face at church? Was there a moment where the tides turned?

00:37:22.910 — 00:37:24.670 · Speaker 2

I think almost

00:37:26.270 — 00:37:31.389 · Speaker 2

putting not necessarily putting on a victim mentality, but feeling

00:37:32.550 — 00:37:37.070 · Speaker 2

vindicated by being the victim in the marriage.

00:37:39.070 — 00:38:04.160 · Speaker 2

It it that then that almost became my identity because it was like, okay, well I'm not the wife anymore. I'm not the kid. I'm not the mom anymore. I'm not the broken family. What am I? I'm this person that stayed at the church. And I'm this person that kept going and this strong woman and stayed, you know, involved raising her kids.

Single mom. You did the right thing. Like.

00:38:04.440 — 00:38:05.400 · Speaker 1

You know, poor you.

00:38:05.440 — 00:38:06.520 · Speaker 2

Yes. And I,

00:38:07.800 — 00:38:20.040 · Speaker 2

I, I wouldn't say, like, looking back now, I can see that I needed that to survive. I needed to feel that.

00:38:20.400 — 00:38:20.840 · Speaker 1

Feel what?

00:38:20.880 — 00:38:21.880 · Speaker 2

To be. Okay.

00:38:23.680 — 00:38:39.600 · Speaker 2

Just heard and seen and like, this is my life and it's not fair. And I want people to know that. But I don't want them to know all the details, but I don't want to take ownership.

00:38:39.600 — 00:38:44.160 · Speaker 1

Was it also a bit of like, well, I was right and he was wrong?

00:38:45.320 — 00:38:47.600 · Speaker 2

Yeah it was

00:38:48.880 — 00:39:07.680 · Speaker 2

so you get but that also being stuck in that I wouldn't recommend that either because being stuck in that victim mentality or even just being stuck in a I. Okay, you can be right. You're right, he is wrong. But staying stuck there doesn't do anything for you.

00:39:07.720 — 00:39:09.440 · Speaker 1

Yes. So what? It's like you.

00:39:09.440 — 00:39:10.400 · Speaker 2

Have to move on.

00:39:10.400 — 00:40:16.520 · Speaker 1

That question do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? Yeah. And I think, you know, in big circumstances, things happen. That's one point in time where a series of actions led to a certain set of decisions. Um, but it it's never just that crisis moment. There was a lot of stuff leading up to whatever the big thing is that happened in different marriages.

Right? And so if somebody could peel behind the curtain, it's it's I think of it as like a proxy because we love as people to be on teams like, you know, the Eagles versus the Cowboys. You got to pick a side. Okay, so when people get divorced, what I've seen is people want to pick us up. They want to pick the winning team.

And if something bad happened to you in your marriage, you're going to be tempted. As I'm sure I know, we both were to be like, oh, pick my side. Mhm. Okay. And those of us who've been on the other side of it for a while and think about this a lot like we both do now you sort of realize hmm. Does anybody have to be right.

And does anybody have to be wrong or is it enough to say this wasn't right?

00:40:16.560 — 00:40:27.000 · Speaker 2

It took my second marriage failing to have so much grace for my first marriage ending.

00:40:27.120 — 00:40:28.480 · Speaker 1

Mhm. Say more.

00:40:28.600 — 00:40:29.360 · Speaker 2

It.

00:40:30.800 — 00:40:31.760 · Speaker 2

That was good.

00:40:34.000 — 00:40:36.200 · Speaker 2

That was good. Um.

00:40:37.680 — 00:41:17.450 · Speaker 2

I had such a. As much as I hated myself as a young adult and young woman, and then bringing kids in a marriage into that, that's crazy. But as much as I hated myself and disliked who I was, I also thought so highly of myself that I was better than everybody in like, a self-deprecating way. Which is super confusing, which makes no sense.

But, um, and so when my marriage fell apart and. Okay, of course, it takes you, takes two to tango. Tango. Like, every marriage has its thing. You're at fault. You're at fault. But I wasn't the most at fault. Yeah. So, like.

00:41:17.490 — 00:41:18.850 · Speaker 1

For keeping score, you're winning.

00:41:18.890 — 00:41:39.649 · Speaker 2

Like I'm. Yeah, like it's not. It's not all my fault. Like, I sure I did some things, but like, that was my mentality for years. And I just always had this like one up over my ex-husband of like, well, I'm not the one that really made the choice to end our marriage. And it took

00:41:40.770 — 00:41:44.090 · Speaker 2

Me making a mistake to get married the second time.

00:41:44.290 — 00:41:45.330 · Speaker 1

I want to talk more about that.

00:41:45.370 — 00:41:53.930 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Please hold. It took me making that mistake to realize. Oh, there's so much grace in humanity.

00:41:54.010 — 00:41:54.450 · Speaker 1

Hmm.

00:41:54.690 — 00:42:04.450 · Speaker 2

We make mistakes all the time. This does not define him. This does not define our kids. This doesn't define my family. Our family now

00:42:06.210 — 00:42:13.810 · Speaker 2

is more whole and happy. Divorced and separate in two households than we ever would have been together.

00:42:13.970 — 00:42:44.900 · Speaker 1

Well, and I think my experience is at first, when you're getting divorced, I know that shame. I talk about it like, um, I had to chew every judgment I'd ever made, like gravel in my mouth every time I thought. And because when I first got divorced, my kids didn't live with me. Primarily, if we were keeping score from the outside, I'd lost.

I was piece of crap. I was worse than the gum on the bottom of your shoe. A mom who doesn't have your kids. Are you an alcoholic? Do you do drugs?

00:42:44.940 — 00:42:45.380 · Speaker 2

What did.

00:42:45.380 — 00:42:50.060 · Speaker 1

You do? What did you do? And I know that's what they thought. And.

00:42:52.460 — 00:43:04.620 · Speaker 1

The shame at first in that feeling. Um hmm. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Shame is is a gross,

00:43:05.780 — 00:45:48.230 · Speaker 1

pervasive, invasive emotion. It's a lie. I didn't have anything to be ashamed of. I didn't know that then. And something happened for me where I decided I was going to keep my head held high. And I was going to settle in to my plan B life and let em let them think that. Let them think I can see it on their face when I meet somebody new.

The way it would happen. I lived in San Antonio then. And one of these sort of proxy questions. I was in a big law firm. Then people would ask is, oh, where do your kids go to school? Because there are lots of private schools in San Antonio and they were trying to get. And I have to say, where they went to school out, not in San Antonio, because they didn't live with me, and they just cocked their head at me and say, wait, what?

Like, oh yeah, my kids are not with me. Primarily. Boom. That look on the face of light bulb going off and then this right making wrong making. And I could almost see most of them take this angle of, oh, I'm better than you. My kids live with me. I would never you must be X. Mhm. I saw that look on faces mostly of people who were still married.

But what I found over the years is the people, those of us who've been there, done that, got the t shirt, joined the club that nobody wanted to join. A lot of us have a lot of grace for life and for other people and for making mistakes, because divorce is a mistake you make out loud. It's a failure. You advertise the court, you know, stamps it, that you couldn't hack it.

You couldn't do it. You said forever. You're a big, fat liar. You vowed before God and everybody. Til death do us part. And you ain't dead yet. What's wrong with you? And everyone's still in it. Miserable as they may be. They still got you. Because I think humans. Um, we talked about this on a different episode.

Like, we have this tendency in particularly women to need to feel, if you're less than me, then I'm better than you. And then I feel a little bit better. I think we've both been we share that to this, like, inherent judgmental ness that I definitely was born with. I saw the world as black and white. I remember in high school, Dustin McClanahan said to me, you're like Judge Judy.

And he meant like this, sort of like black, white, judgmental person. Mhm. Ain't nothing going to take you down a notch like divorce if you get divorced and then you're still judgmental. You know we need to get you to the therapist. Mhm. Um or I don't know what we need to get you to the church. Get you to the plant medicine.

I don't know what you're doing, but something else. But

00:45:49.270 — 00:46:03.030 · Speaker 1

I think that that story that you tell is one of such the silver linings of divorce. Like one of those treasures that I wouldn't give up for anything now. Nope. Is that how you feel?

00:46:03.070 — 00:46:12.870 · Speaker 2

Oh, absolutely. I would. I was talking to a girlfriend the other day, and I. We were talking all the things, and she

00:46:13.950 — 00:46:35.150 · Speaker 2

said something about my second marriage and the way that it ended. And I said, if I had to do it all over again, I would pick my first one over my second one, hands down. I had a family, I had kids, my whole world blew up and I would choose that ten times over.

00:46:36.190 — 00:46:37.910 · Speaker 2

Then the second marriage.

00:46:38.390 — 00:47:06.670 · Speaker 1

Well, until it. So let's talk about that. So things blow up, you eventually get stable and everything and then enter stage left to New Fella and you find yourself, um, you know, quickly swept off your feet. I remember observing this. Yeah, but happening via vis a vis social media. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about maybe how you got yourself into that situation?

00:47:06.710 — 00:47:34.230 · Speaker 2

Sure. So when I feel like when your marriage ends, so, so does who you are. And I lost who I didn't. First of all, I didn't know who I was, so how could you lose it? So then I was double lost. So I'm trying to rebuild everything. And I spent probably 3 or 4 years after my divorce to my kids dad in therapy and in church and trying to figure out who I was.

Right. And

00:47:36.230 — 00:47:47.270 · Speaker 2

I thought I knew who I was. I still don't think I do, but I'm getting a better idea of it. I don't know how to how to say it.

00:47:47.310 — 00:47:50.670 · Speaker 1

We have a whole lifetime to. We're always evolving.

00:47:50.710 — 00:47:51.070 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:47:51.110 — 00:47:57.030 · Speaker 1

We're. Michelle Obama talks about becoming. We're always becoming. Yeah. If not, you're dead.

00:47:57.070 — 00:48:01.389 · Speaker 2

Yeah. If it's not good, it's not done yet. And

00:48:02.830 — 00:48:15.190 · Speaker 2

I thought there was so much back to the shame and guilt. There was so much of that, that then I'm. I'm healed now, right? Like I'm on the other side of divorce.

00:48:15.190 — 00:48:15.670 · Speaker 1

You've done the.

00:48:15.670 — 00:48:27.320 · Speaker 2

Work. I've done the work. I've done the therapy. I have a good job. My kids are happy. We have this co-parenting situation figured out, but we're still in a broken home, so I need somebody

00:48:28.760 — 00:48:30.040 · Speaker 2

to fix the broken home.

00:48:30.080 — 00:48:30.880 · Speaker 1

Unbreak my heart.

00:48:30.880 — 00:49:06.240 · Speaker 2

I want it to look like a perfect family. So again, maybe it's like the OCD in me. I get obsessive over, like, little things and it was what it looked like or what it should be. The idea of what something should be. And I had it so ingrained in my brain that my kids would not have a good childhood. My kids would not be happy.

My kids would not feel loved if they did not have a father figure in their home. So the first first guy that showed me attention after my divorce.

00:49:08.320 — 00:49:09.200 · Speaker 2

Why not?

00:49:09.280 — 00:49:12.880 · Speaker 1

Did you put more thought into it the second time than the first time?

00:49:12.920 — 00:49:23.040 · Speaker 2

Like, oh my God, no. It was a flippant I don't make flippant decisions. I'm a very methodical process list type of person,

00:49:24.120 — 00:49:39.440 · Speaker 2

but I wanted it so bad. I wanted it, the family, the happy ending. I wanted to win. So if I got remarried and had a happy family, I won.

00:49:41.000 — 00:49:42.000 · Speaker 1

Girl had that work.

00:49:42.040 — 00:49:42.880 · Speaker 2

I did not win.

00:49:42.920 — 00:49:46.080 · Speaker 1

Yeah? Why not? Or like, how do you know you didn't win?

00:49:46.840 — 00:49:48.360 · Speaker 2

Well, I'm divorced again.

00:49:48.400 — 00:49:48.960 · Speaker 1

Well, yeah.

00:49:49.000 — 00:49:49.800 · Speaker 2

So. Hi.

00:49:49.960 — 00:50:10.920 · Speaker 1

Yeah. How? Okay, so you've got you've got two test cases here. Yeah. And you've got the first time where your kiddo miserable, you know, run of the mill miserable, etc.. Then you have the second marriage. Was there a similar misery? Like, was it the same or was it different? Like, how did you know this? Wasn't it?

The second time.

00:50:12.680 — 00:50:21.720 · Speaker 2

I got married. The second time. For the wrong reasons. Okay, I feel like the freaking bachelor. Um, I, I wanted,

00:50:23.650 — 00:50:38.330 · Speaker 2

I wanted the family so bad that I ignored everything that told me to run, so I knew what I was doing. But I chose to still do it and I paid the price for it.

00:50:39.210 — 00:50:40.730 · Speaker 5

What price did you pay?

00:50:42.410 — 00:50:53.610 · Speaker 2

At the time, I was working in ministry and we obviously were very active in the church. My new husband and I. And

00:50:55.010 — 00:51:00.090 · Speaker 2

you don't get divorced a second time in the church, especially when you work there.

00:51:00.130 — 00:51:00.730 · Speaker 1

I remember you.

00:51:00.730 — 00:51:01.530 · Speaker 5

Texted me.

00:51:01.530 — 00:51:10.010 · Speaker 2

And. And I feel like. Wow. While nobody said you can't get divorced again,

00:51:11.170 — 00:51:16.050 · Speaker 2

that was the cloak that was on. And it became a.

00:51:18.290 — 00:51:28.010 · Speaker 2

My family, my marriage, my job and my place of faith were in one place and it just erupted

00:51:29.730 — 00:51:39.570 · Speaker 2

and I went into flight or fight, and I was like, I'm fighting, I'm done. I couldn't take it anymore.

00:51:41.010 — 00:51:47.929 · Speaker 1

And so, you know, I remember you reaching out to me at that time and

00:51:49.410 — 00:52:06.450 · Speaker 1

saying, like, Hannah, I cannot get divorced again. Like, what a failure. I'm worthless. I can't do this. Like no one will ever want me again. And I mean, talk about shame. And I remember, just like I remember this.

00:52:07.570 — 00:53:03.010 · Speaker 1

I remember I was doing a meditation like my own version of a prayer time. And you messaged me that day, and I remember, um, sending you that David Crowder song. Oh, how he loves us. And just, like, desperately pouring into you. That's not true. That's a lie. You're not worthless, right? Like, just sort of the contre thought to what you were saying.

Um. Was there. Was there anything different the second time? Like overcoming that shame. Overcoming that. Like was it faster? Did you recognize the lie of the shame and everything sooner? Yes. Let's just go back to. So you're married? You know, you get married for a second time. Yeah. You meet him, you're wanting him to fill in the daddy hole.

I think a lot of people do this, and they jump in really quickly. Because it feels good to create a Four Corners family, like, oh, yeah, you've got your ex-husband you got to deal with sometimes. But like, in our house, look at us.

00:53:03.050 — 00:53:12.770 · Speaker 2

It also validated that I wasn't the reason my marriage ended. Somebody somebody wants me. So if he wants me, then,

00:53:14.170 — 00:53:16.850 · Speaker 2

like, I'm good. And I have to cling to that validation.

00:53:16.850 — 00:53:20.620 · Speaker 1

Well, and it sounds like you were still depositing your identity

00:53:21.900 — 00:53:22.660 · Speaker 1

elsewhere.

00:53:22.700 — 00:53:22.980 · Speaker 2

Yes.

00:53:23.020 — 00:55:02.700 · Speaker 1

Like you talked about your identity in your in your first marriage and in the pastor's wife and in the mama and the stay at home mom and the teacher. And then you're talking about, okay, now you're going to give this guy the opportunity to define your identity again. I think women this is something I've thought about for a long time now.

I think so many of us live in derivative identities where we are defined by something outside of ourselves. Right? I'm. I'm not Amanda. With all the. I am the mom, right? I can't be a mom unless something else exists. Wife unless I'm married. Right? Like, we deposit the power of defining who we are and everything but ourselves.

Because if I said to you, who am I, a singular identity, a self derived identity might say, I'm brave, I'm strong, I'm love, I am a D, I wire, etc. cetera. But if you listen, and once you hear this, you can't hear it, that when you ask somebody like, who are you? What's your story? Then they tell you about everyone else and how they relate to other people.

So I think what happens is that people and I mean talking to women in this show, people, it's like they've built a house of cards of who they are. And so you remove the card of wife, think, and the whole thing comes crashing down. And that's why it's such like a death. And there's so much grief. It's because it's not only the death of, like, the life you'd hope for, it's the death of who you thought you were.

And so in this situation with this fella, you're getting, you know, you're back in a situation. So you're still young because you're now, even as we sit here, 33 years old.

00:55:02.740 — 00:55:03.780 · Speaker 2

I'm 33 now.

00:55:03.780 — 00:55:08.980 · Speaker 1

So you were, what, 30, 20? 30 about 30.

00:55:09.020 — 00:55:09.940 · Speaker 2

Yeah, 30.

00:55:09.980 — 00:55:28.270 · Speaker 1

Okay. So you're, you know, frontal lobe or whatever is like a little bit more developed, like, yeah, but you're still having these little kids, like, in that marriage. How did you know? What are the signs? Because some people just don't know how to know when it's not right and when it may be time to go. Like what was happening in that marriage?

00:55:28.270 — 00:55:32.310 · Speaker 2

If you have to force every little thing, it's not right.

00:55:32.350 — 00:55:33.710 · Speaker 1

What do you mean, force it?

00:55:33.750 — 00:55:49.270 · Speaker 2

Force? Just forcing everything. Forcing your happiness. Forcing. If you have to want to every single day. Change the person that you're with, don't marry them, right? You would think that's a no brainer.

00:55:49.350 — 00:55:50.630 · Speaker 1

Like, you have to say.

00:55:50.630 — 00:55:53.990 · Speaker 2

It, but you have to. Like, you can't do that.

00:55:54.110 — 00:56:12.590 · Speaker 1

Yeah, it's like you marry. I tell people you marry character. And I don't even necessarily mean like, good, bad liars or not. I'm talking about you. Marry the like, essential core of the person. Circumstances are going to change. If we're going to gain in lose weight, they're going to look different. We're going to get older.

Da da da. Um. and

00:56:14.470 — 00:56:39.230 · Speaker 1

those I think a lot of times people make marriage decisions based on transient, temporary things. And if you look at often what I find, if people talk about why they're getting divorced, they're relating back to the red flags that were there when they were dating. Yeah. That they ignored or assumed would get better or wished away.

Was that true for you in your second marriage?

00:56:39.270 — 00:57:08.190 · Speaker 2

It was. And I, which I have to take accountability in that because I knew I should not have gotten married and I still did it. And I think that will eat at me for a very long time. I'm not over that. Like, it's still very difficult to talk about having two failed marriages like I like, I will go on a date or and meeting someone new and I'm like, oh my God, I don't want to say that that's going to scare you, because what's wrong with me that I got divorced twice?

00:57:08.550 — 00:57:11.710 · Speaker 1

Do you think there's something wrong with you that you got divorced twice.

00:57:11.830 — 00:57:25.189 · Speaker 2

I think I'm a daydreamer, and I like to look at people's potential, and that's all. That's what I see. I see somebody's potential and what they can be. And I run with it

00:57:26.350 — 00:57:27.430 · Speaker 2

as you.

00:57:27.550 — 00:57:31.870 · Speaker 1

Because, I mean, we got to do a whole other episode of, like, Dating Diaries with Amanda.

00:57:31.910 — 00:57:33.390 · Speaker 2

Um, I've got good ones.

00:57:33.430 — 00:57:39.310 · Speaker 1

Are you. Do you think now, two times in, you've learned your lesson in that? In your picker?

00:57:39.350 — 00:57:41.990 · Speaker 2

Well, my lawyer said I can't get married a third time.

00:57:42.030 — 00:57:43.110 · Speaker 1

Yeah, so

00:57:44.750 — 00:57:54.430 · Speaker 1

I know a gal. Um. Well, do you. But do you think that part of this is, like, you repeated the same mistake, and maybe it just takes you longer to learn?

00:57:54.470 — 00:57:57.790 · Speaker 2

It does. Yeah, I think so. And I think I,

00:57:59.590 — 00:58:10.320 · Speaker 2

I really think it goes it boils down to knowing who you are and liking who you are. You cannot be with somebody and expect them to love you when you don't love yourself.

00:58:10.840 — 00:58:35.520 · Speaker 1

And in the context of your second marriage, you say, I'm just trying to get some specifics for people. So, like you say, there it was forcing everything. Does that look like making them go on a date night, forcing them to be intimate with you, forcing them to interact with the kids? Like, what do you mean?

If you have to force everything? Like, how could someone know that they're in the wrong marriage?

00:58:35.560 — 00:58:37.400 · Speaker 2

Mhm. That's a good question.

00:58:39.160 — 00:58:52.400 · Speaker 2

Everything is a battle. And you there's you just have turmoil sitting in you no matter what. But when your life is so used to being in that, that's normal.

00:58:53.720 — 00:59:56.239 · Speaker 2

So I, I look at feeling how I feel now far removed ish from, from being in the chaos and divorce. And all of that is like smooth sailing, but to me it's more scary and dangerous than not than not, because that's not my norm. So I look at it, my son had his tonsils and adenoids taken out when he was five, and he had strep every month for like a year, so he needed them taken out.

Well, the surgeon had come out and the day he got out of surgery and the surgeon came out and said, he's going to really struggle for a while because his throat is completely healed and clear now. Like, then why would he struggle? Because his throat is so used to being infected all the time. That's all it knows.

And now that he's not infected, he's got to relearn how that feels. That's literally

00:59:57.720 — 00:59:59.280 · Speaker 2

what life is like.

01:00:00.000 — 01:02:34.010 · Speaker 1

I am so glad that you talked about this, because I talk about this all the time. I talk about it at the law firm. I talked about it on my team meeting today and how when you're used to living a life that's cortisol driven and fear driven and survival driven, and then all of a sudden you find yourself in safety and stability, peace.

It can read to your body and your nervous system as boring, as depressing as empty. And I think a lot of people really miss this and what they do, which I have to believe probably happen with you, is post divorce from your first husband. And things have kind of gotten settled and whatever. And you were in some ways addicted to the drama, addicted to the highs and lows, addicted to the the hormones running through your body to deal with this.

So you probably felt in a lull of actually what we would say now is stability. And things were kind of going, okay. Well, the subconscious likes a good fight, the ego likes a good fight, likes some war, because then it doesn't have to sit with its own stuff. It doesn't have to change its own self. We can be outward focused again and worry about that and keep ourselves kind of busy and occupied.

I bet you were in a place like that when you met this other fella, and we're ready for some drama, even though we wouldn't consciously say that. Uh, and I think that that's one of the things for people maybe, who are just after divorce, and maybe you're dating somebody new. And I think it's a really good thing to consider and to be honest with yourself, if you can stand it so you don't end up divorce the second time, whether you're making a decision without doing the work to being able to sit with space and safety.

How does your body. I know for my own self, in my own marriage, I'm married, I'm divorced, you know, and I'm married to an amazing guy, and I've had to go through the journey of stability and peace and steadiness and groundedness and lack of drama, lack of fighting, feeling boring. And did I make the wrong decision or am I in the wrong situation?

Fortunately, I learned the lesson that this is how my body reacts, how my heart reacts, how my mind reacts to stability. Do you think you've got a handle on that now?

01:02:34.730 — 01:02:53.210 · Speaker 2

I do. Um, I, I think it will be a lifelong work. I don't think it will ever. I just I'm a big, like, lifelong learner. Never stop learning. Ever. That might be the teacher in me, but you just.

01:02:53.450 — 01:03:07.420 · Speaker 1

Do you feel like you've learned the lesson from really both of these marriages where you can now, like sit with peace and stability and not feel like you need to plug that hole with some big, fat, old fashioned drama.

01:03:07.900 — 01:03:16.420 · Speaker 2

Yes. And I would say the thing that I go back to that I just tell myself over and over again is let the ground rest.

01:03:16.460 — 01:03:16.900 · Speaker 1

Mhm.

01:03:17.060 — 01:03:34.020 · Speaker 2

Just let it freakin rest. My mind does not rest. My body does not rest. But when we plant seeds of something in the ground, you don't sit there and stare at them or step on them or dig them up and try to fix it for them to grow. You let it freak and rest.

01:03:34.900 — 01:03:35.900 · Speaker 1

That's what I've said.

01:03:36.220 — 01:03:45.540 · Speaker 2

Let it rest. And I wish I would have done that. I wish I would have done that and just taken a minute, but I didn't.

01:03:46.780 — 01:03:48.620 · Speaker 2

And I learned I've.

01:03:48.620 — 01:04:08.140 · Speaker 1

Had that exact same thought. Let it rest with. Let the ground be like fallow, I guess. Like. And sometimes the crops they burn, the crops. They burn the field and don't farm it for a season so that later it can produce more valuable like fruit, corn, whatever. I guess farmer people do. Um, yeah, we don't know.

We've heard about it.

01:04:08.180 — 01:04:09.180 · Speaker 2

We live in the city.

01:04:09.220 — 01:04:09.820 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

01:04:10.860 — 01:04:41.060 · Speaker 1

Um, and I think that's such a wise thing to do that you ain't going to feel like doing in the middle of a divorce. You ain't going to feel like doing it right after because so many people were hurting. And we don't like to hurt. Duh. Um, and so we reach and grab for anything we can to make ourselves feel better.

Um, but the wisdom of experience from two gals who've been through this and been dealing in this world for a decade or so now, um, would say,

01:04:42.380 — 01:05:11.710 · Speaker 1

let the ground rest so you can harvest a great crop. I mean, I know that that was true for me. Kind of like when I met my my husband, drew, I hadn't let much ground rest for me. It was a long time of rest. Like. I mean, months, right? So it wasn't that long. Yeah. If I could go back in time, I would have told that gal to slow down a minute.

Yeah. Let the ground rest. I think that's really great, counsel. You know, in that that vein, your lifelong learner, a teacher.

01:05:12.790 — 01:05:29.830 · Speaker 1

If you could go back in time and talk to yourself or even just currently, like talk to women in the middle of a marriage where they feel miserable and they're not quite sure what to do or like, what would you go back and tell them? Like, what do you wish you would have known?

01:05:29.830 — 01:05:32.669 · Speaker 2

I would focus on her as an individual

01:05:34.670 — 01:05:39.150 · Speaker 2

and just tell her who she is and what she is,

01:05:40.350 — 01:05:41.149 · Speaker 2

and

01:05:43.070 — 01:05:45.510 · Speaker 2

it goes back to the identity of who you are.

01:05:47.950 — 01:05:53.390 · Speaker 1

I think that especially women who get married young, like we both did.

01:05:54.670 — 01:05:57.629 · Speaker 1

The lack of self-worth

01:05:58.910 — 01:06:08.110 · Speaker 1

is the reason why we marry people that are not aligned with us vibrationally. Is that a nice way to say.

01:06:08.110 — 01:06:33.830 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think, I think. And for me it was like, well, opposites attract, right? And I but I envied that of my partner. I was a shy, introverted and I still am. Like I like to chill at home, but you, you just you're the shell of a human that you don't know what you like and who you are. And I would adapt myself to who I was around.

01:06:34.270 — 01:06:37.550 · Speaker 1

Like the Julia Roberts movie where she keeps getting married.

01:06:37.590 — 01:06:38.030 · Speaker 2

Yes.

01:06:38.070 — 01:06:44.750 · Speaker 1

And she doesn't know how she likes her. Yes. So maybe your advice could be like that. Like you need to know how you like your eggs.

01:06:44.790 — 01:06:45.510 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

01:06:45.630 — 01:08:41.359 · Speaker 1

Before you jump into this situation. Mhm. Um, I think that that goes for any in case there's young women listening to this who are maybe in a dating relationship and thinking they want the same, they want the picture perfect life. They want the Instagrammable kids, they want the Christmas cards. Like for those gals on the starting end, I know what I would say is, honey, if you can't, if you haven't lived out on your own for a while, if you haven't paid your own bills, found out how good it feels until you feel really good by yourself, you can't really make a decision about who to let into your life because you don't know what you're giving up.

If I would have ever gotten to a place where I knew how good it feels to be on my own, I would have made very different decisions. And I know for me. So like I when after I got divorced, it's one way, you know, if like you didn't have your identity squared is I remember the first time really having I wasn't busy.

I hadn't filled my space with something else. Coming home to an empty house because my kids weren't with me. My boy drew was my boyfriend by then. He was doing something else. I couldn't talk to him on the phone because he lived far away and come in, and I had no idea what to do with myself, and I bawled my eyes out at the kitchen table.

I didn't know how to enjoy my own company. I didn't know how to be good with me. And I think if you're a young woman who's not even yet married, the best thing you can do is be able to say that before you get married, that you're good with you and that you're choosing this person because they add to your life experience, not getting married from a place of need, or expecting this person to fill up some hole inside of you.

Because we know that other person ain't going to do it.

01:08:41.400 — 01:09:04.319 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I would say to that young woman too, that's dating, maybe engaged, and they have that Tension in their heart, in their soul of it doesn't feel right. But we already put the deposit down or we've been together for so long. But I do love him and he's such a great guy and I see everything we could have. But you know, in your gut, you just know.

We know. And you know.

01:09:05.359 — 01:09:20.120 · Speaker 1

It's there's a Seinfeld quote, you can't fight the body, Jerry. It's a fight you can't win. Your body knows. Yes, at least for women. We know that. I don't know about guys, but for women, we know our intuition. Our gut tells us. Mhm.

01:09:20.279 — 01:09:33.120 · Speaker 2

And I would say listen to that because I learned this the hard way but thankfully not the super hard way. It might hurt but I would rather it hurt now than harm later.

01:09:33.799 — 01:09:34.240 · Speaker 1

Mhm.

01:09:34.359 — 01:09:35.159 · Speaker 2

So

01:09:36.839 — 01:10:04.089 · Speaker 2

if I would have stayed married the second time. Did divorcing that man hurt my family? Yeah, I had kids. He had moved into my home. We had. We were married. Right. That hurts people. I it just it's not lost on me that he was hurt. I was hurt, kids were hurt. People were hurt. But if if I would have stayed in that marriage for any reason, the harm it would have done long term

01:10:05.210 — 01:10:08.170 · Speaker 2

would have destroyed generations.

01:10:09.050 — 01:10:10.170 · Speaker 1

All in all,

01:10:11.570 — 01:10:23.930 · Speaker 1

taken into account. Amanda, all of the hard times you've been through, all the difficulties and the divorce both times. Are you glad you made the decisions to get divorced?

01:10:25.410 — 01:10:26.210 · Speaker 2

Yes.

01:10:27.170 — 01:10:30.690 · Speaker 1

Is that a hard decision? Is that. Is that a strong yes a medium? Yes.

01:10:30.690 — 01:10:41.090 · Speaker 2

No, it's a it's a strong yes. It's still it's still a tough pill to swallow to say two divorces. That is really hard.

01:10:41.170 — 01:10:42.170 · Speaker 1

But you're glad you did it.

01:10:42.170 — 01:10:44.370 · Speaker 2

But I'm glad I did it. Yes.

01:10:44.370 — 01:10:54.450 · Speaker 1

And I say that because for the woman who's just in the thick of thinking about this, and they're thinking about the pain to the kids, look. And your your kids have suffered, right?

01:10:54.810 — 01:10:56.290 · Speaker 2

Yes, yes.

01:10:56.490 — 01:10:57.130 · Speaker 1

They've been.

01:10:57.130 — 01:10:57.530 · Speaker 2

Hurt.

01:10:57.770 — 01:10:58.210 · Speaker 1

Along the.

01:10:58.210 — 01:10:59.970 · Speaker 2

Way. They've been hurt.

01:11:01.370 — 01:11:26.850 · Speaker 2

But it took my daughter saying this is not a good fit for our family. Mom, when you're seven, it took that little perspective to know, yeah, kids are resilient. I hated when people told me going through the divorce. Your kids are resilient. They'll be fine. Well, no shit, they are. Yes, they will be. That doesn't negate how it sucks.

01:11:27.130 — 01:11:32.129 · Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think it's just like, look, neither one of us would say that our kids

01:11:33.250 — 01:12:03.530 · Speaker 1

came out unscathed. Neither one of us would say that all things being equal, if we could stay, could have stayed and happy. Supportive right marriages that that would be preferable. But I think what I'm hearing you say, and what I know is true for me, is that getting divorced so that your kids could see a happy and fulfilled mom and see two homes with people who love them.

Um, for you that it was worth it?

01:12:03.570 — 01:12:05.210 · Speaker 2

Yes, 100%.

01:12:05.250 — 01:13:21.820 · Speaker 1

And that the the thing that people who want you to stay small and stay where you are and stay in crappy situations. They'll talk to you about how bad it's going to hurt your kids again. They want us women to leave ourselves out of our own lives. I just don't think that that's what we owe our children. I don't think that we owe our children our happiness and our, you know, quote unquote good years.

I don't think we owe that to them. I think we owe them love, support. But I don't think we have to sacrifice ourselves on the altar of what may or may not. And I think everybody knows staying married for the kids ends up crappy. Like, that's just kind of a known fact. But at the same breath they say that. But then.

But you need to stay because how bad this is going to hurt the kids. But there is a longitudinal study that was done, like across a long period of time that talked that family law thing that demonstrated that it wasn't the actual divorce that harmed the kids, it was the conflict. And I think in your situation, Amanda, you've got kind of a happy ending story to the conflict because I think at first pretty bumpy and maybe not the best in the co-parenting.

What's it like now co-parenting with your first ex-husband?

01:13:21.860 — 01:13:24.700 · Speaker 2

Co-parenting is great. Now, um,

01:13:25.860 — 01:13:37.660 · Speaker 2

it took years and it took a lot of growth on both ends, and I would say more on my end. Honestly, I needed I needed that marriage to end to be who I am.

01:13:37.980 — 01:13:38.420 · Speaker 1

Mhm.

01:13:38.580 — 01:13:46.140 · Speaker 2

I would not be who I am without that. Like I'm so thankful that that happened.

01:13:46.220 — 01:13:51.820 · Speaker 1

And did you if like you could go back to Amanda who got that text message.

01:13:51.820 — 01:13:53.260 · Speaker 2

I would have slapped myself.

01:13:53.300 — 01:13:59.500 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Would you. But would you think she would believe you if you said you're gonna end up being so thankful that this happened?

01:13:59.540 — 01:14:01.100 · Speaker 2

No. Never.

01:14:01.220 — 01:14:06.820 · Speaker 1

So for those of you who hear us saying this, you're like, I cannot believe you. That's never going to be me.

01:14:07.420 — 01:14:12.260 · Speaker 2

You will get through it. It's better on the other end.

01:14:13.460 — 01:14:16.500 · Speaker 2

If it's not good, it's not done.

01:14:16.660 — 01:14:17.100 · Speaker 1

Mhm.

01:14:17.180 — 01:14:19.220 · Speaker 2

And let it rest.

01:14:19.580 — 01:14:22.500 · Speaker 1

Yeah. So is that the advice you'd give the women of divorced land.

01:14:22.540 — 01:14:35.939 · Speaker 2

I would say listen to your gut. Listen to your gut. Take whatever fear you have the fear of. Well we have to start over and have to date again are going to break up and okay, well, what if it hurts the kids just

01:14:36.950 — 01:14:40.710 · Speaker 2

Without the fear. You know, in your body and your soul what you're supposed to do.

01:14:41.950 — 01:15:08.990 · Speaker 1

And, Amanda, you know, I think one of the things I've experienced when people go through a difficult divorce in a family law situation is oftentimes on the other end of it. They want to do something with it. They want to do something with their pain. They want to help someone else. They want to share the wisdom and things that they've learned.

I mean, I know the answer to this question, like you tell us about how that's played out for you.

01:15:09.030 — 01:15:46.029 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think and it goes back to kind of I'm going to pivot and come back if that's okay. Yeah. When I first got divorced and my kid's dad, I remember thinking in the naive pain thinking, however, this ends up God's going to get the glory right. And I don't know if I believed that. I think I just kept telling myself that to make myself feel better and to make myself feel like the better one of the situation.

So it worked for a little bit, but fast forward, I didn't know what that looked like. Um, and fast forward. I

01:15:47.270 — 01:15:53.750 · Speaker 2

still struggle with the shame of two divorces,

01:15:54.830 — 01:15:58.030 · Speaker 2

but I get to use that now.

01:15:58.910 — 01:16:24.270 · Speaker 1

Yeah. So you've what? I mean, I just know your story. Like you had this difficulty and you'd had this first thought, okay, God's going to get the glory. And maybe that's the way you would have said that back then. Maybe now would you say something more like, I'm going to take this pain and let it work for good?

All things work for good, right? And like a little bit different of an approach. How is that playing out in your life now? Yeah.

01:16:24.710 — 01:17:03.790 · Speaker 2

Yeah. I always wanted to take the hurt and the pain and use it for good, and I didn't know what that would look like. And I got a call one day from you and just telling me about your firm and what role I could play there, and you championed me and thought what I could do. And I thought about it. I thought, I know nothing about the law.

I know nothing about anything. Well, I guess I do, because I've been divorced twice, so I'm pretty familiar with some things. Yeah. Um, but what really attracted me to it is I get to just help people and listen to people.

01:17:04.710 — 01:17:32.240 · Speaker 1

Because what do you do? Because the what we're getting at is Amanda joined the firm and is getting to use Henryville on Austin. She joined us at the firm, um, and gets to use the difficulty in all the things that have happened to her in a role, connecting with people who are considering the divorce and meeting them where they are and coming alongside them and listening to their stories, like, how does that feel to get to do that?

01:17:32.280 — 01:18:19.279 · Speaker 2

Is Hannah my dream? It is my dream because I like if if somebody could have just sat me down. So many people. When you're going through a divorce and you're going through just the shit, so many people are just pouring into you that it's just like it's that little image of the kid where the parents screaming at you, and you have all this stuff in your head and you don't know who you're listening to.

You don't know what to hear and what you're saying. And if I just had somebody like me at the time pouring into me, telling me I've been there, I've done it, I'm on the other side. You will get through it. You're not a loser. You might have made a mistake. Sure, you might have not. But you're not alone

01:18:20.400 — 01:18:25.000 · Speaker 2

and helping you walk through that. There's nothing better.

01:18:25.480 — 01:19:39.490 · Speaker 1

Well, and I know that all of our clients, when they, you know, are thinking about which law firm to hire, that they get to talk with you and hear you share that story and that encouragement. It's a game changer for them. I wish I would have had it when I was getting divorced. I sure did not like, hey y'all, law office, what you need kind of a situation.

And I think for listeners, you know, maybe they're not going to go join a divorce law firm. Okay. But once you're on the other side of this, it will mean so much to you. You will gain so many life lessons. Remember, divorce can make you bitter or better than you choose. So for those of you who are choosing better on the other side, you may feel and will likely feel.

If you're a helper sort of person, you will. Most women are. You may feel compelled to sort of share what you've learned, do something with this pain to turn it for good. And maybe it doesn't look like joining a law firm. Maybe it looks like being a supportive friend for somebody in the middle of it. Maybe it looks like when someone's struggling in their marriage to say, hey, how are you doing?

Did you know that? Like, it doesn't. Your life doesn't have the medium suck.

01:19:40.610 — 01:20:10.529 · Speaker 1

Maybe it looks like at church when you learn that somebody's family is falling apart, not joining the masses of the judges, but instead being the one to say, I see you. It's going to be okay. Mhm. You're at the right place. Right. And I think that that's one of the biggest joys definitely of my life is the thing that took me down to the gum on the bottom of your shoe.

Level of

01:20:11.570 — 01:20:12.890 · Speaker 1

depravity,

01:20:13.970 — 01:20:18.130 · Speaker 1

total nothingness, blankness I had nothing left.

01:20:18.530 — 01:20:20.850 · Speaker 2

There's so much beauty in that, though.

01:20:21.090 — 01:20:22.090 · Speaker 1

The rise,

01:20:23.450 — 01:21:12.610 · Speaker 1

the phoenix ness. And it's interesting like through the show and just my job like talking about that a lot. I a little bit feel a tendency to be like, I don't want to talk about the rise, like, because you can let it. And it did define me for a long time, like, oh, look at me. I'm so strong in whatever at the time.

Now I'm pretty allergic to that. And it's more like, um, you know what I was doing? Just. And I believe this about really, literally all people, they're doing the best they can in the circumstances. They're in with the hand they've been dealt and the, you know, the the decisions they've been made. And I, I believe and sometimes that that is not a decision that I would align with for a lot of people.

They make some bad decisions. But I think that for me,

01:21:13.650 — 01:21:50.890 · Speaker 1

the, the, the really beautiful part of being divorced and that's what like I'm just so grateful for you sharing this part of the story. I mean, it's just like who it can allow you to become. It really can be. Your becoming and a stripping. Rising feels to me a little bit like over dramatizing it and like glorifying the suck and magnifying the climb.

And I'm kind of unwilling to join people in that, even my own self anymore. And it's more like, it's not like, look at me. I went from way down here to way up here. Look at me. I was this piece of crap, this and that, and now I have a husband and I married and that

01:21:52.530 — 01:22:03.810 · Speaker 1

it's more for me about I am still becoming and I recognize in other people they're becoming. Maybe you're becoming is taking a little longer then I would choose and I would wish.

01:22:03.850 — 01:22:32.899 · Speaker 2

For me what you just said, being the gum on the bottom of the shoe. I'm so grateful that I was at that point, not because I could rise or that there was this, you know, plot twist of a story or I'm better or whatever, but it was that it gave me the ability to meet people where they are and to see them. It took me being the gum on the bottom of the shoe to be able to look at people who had hurt me in the past and move on

01:22:34.180 — 01:22:35.140 · Speaker 2

and access.

01:22:35.140 — 01:23:37.820 · Speaker 1

I think it for those of us who have perfectionist tendencies. Not at all. None. Um, or judgy tendencies or self-aggrandizement or whatever. If you let this divorce can be where you eat your humble pie. Yep. And man, it sucks going down. And it's like chewing gravel in your teeth and yet. Mhm. On the other side who you have the opportunity to become.

I wouldn't trade it in mine. My story don't end the way yours does. Um it's ongoing difficult. There's a lot of pain. There's still a lot of things unresolved and unfinished and yet. Mhm. I wouldn't write my own self out of my life and I would make the same decision again. I'm glad I didn't know what it would cost me.

I'm glad I didn't know how hard it would be, because I don't know that I could have gone through with it, frankly.

01:23:38.900 — 01:24:56.550 · Speaker 1

But I believe that help arrives when you need it, if you're open to it. That happened for me at every juncture. I got the word. I got the call, the text, the support that I needed to get through it. And that's the hope with the show that this is what it's going to be for people. The same. Maybe this is just a little bit.

Hearing from Amanda and her story, a little bit of that help that you needed. Now, Amanda. Each week when we talk to people, we have just some little things we like to talk about to kind of check in. And, you know, the theme of the show is not saving it for later. And I literally think that I started saying this as a contra thought to change my natural way.

My natural way is to, like, work really hard and focus on that and like never enjoy. And for me, this comes up the most when I'm like thinking about which spoon I use to stir my coffee. It is so dumb. But I always, um, like pause when I go to get the best spoon because I want to have it later, even though they can literally be washed and there's more than one.

But I will not get the good spoon. It's so dumb or not spraying the good perfume or whatever. Is there anything in your life that you, that you find that you save for later, that maybe you'd be willing to try not to? Or like, do you have that tendency at all?

01:24:57.750 — 01:25:24.950 · Speaker 2

I think for me, it's not saving my happiness for later. Um, like, I can be happy now. It's okay to be happy now. Um, even when it's hard, even when you wake up feeling like you have a lion sitting on your chest, you can make the choice to be happy. I think I lived so many years in the state of. If something's not wrong.

01:25:26.670 — 01:25:28.270 · Speaker 2

Like if.

01:25:29.630 — 01:25:32.950 · Speaker 2

If something's not wrong, it's wrong.

01:25:34.390 — 01:25:42.870 · Speaker 2

And you can be happy. Don't save that for later. Don't wait until your kids are out of the house. Don't wait until you know he

01:25:44.230 — 01:25:48.390 · Speaker 2

is done calling you bad words and slams the door and leaves.

01:25:50.750 — 01:25:52.350 · Speaker 2

Don't. Don't save,

01:25:53.510 — 01:25:57.670 · Speaker 2

don't save your your joy for later.

01:25:57.710 — 01:27:14.680 · Speaker 1

That's what I was thinking when I asked you about, like, you know, I was talking about the spoons. It's a joke, but I think that, like, for me, it's about not saving joy for later. It's always something I'll get to later at once. This and I think perfectionist tendency people Like, once I've lost five more pounds, then I'm going to feel good about myself and have joy once I've, you know, got everything at work totally settled and everybody's happy and all of our numbers are good.

And then I'll enjoy the success and putting off the joy. And, you know, we're never promised tomorrow. We never know when it's going to be our last day. Like the whole point of this show and really where I'm at in my life is like, divorce is one pathway where you can not save your own joy for later. Yeah. Because if you're in a situation where you're unhappy and you're just thinking, I'll be happy later, I'll be joyful later, you are not promised tomorrow.

And divorce, I think, is one of the ways out to gain that for yourself. If you made a decision that maybe you wouldn't make again, or it doesn't serve you, that you can make a new one. Okay. Um, another question I'd like to ask is what is your dominant thought?

01:27:14.720 — 01:27:16.120 · Speaker 2

Oh, I think I wrote it down.

01:27:16.120 — 01:27:37.160 · Speaker 1

And with your dominant thought, like I found that maybe not every single day, but like, there'll be this loop in my mind for a week at a time, or maybe a couple weeks at a time that my brain is kind of percolating on and thinking about maybe something I saw or read or whatever is there. Have you been having a dominant thought lately?

01:27:39.080 — 01:27:52.680 · Speaker 2

I think this week my dominant thought would be, and I talked about this in the circle a little bit. It would be the idea that joy and pain coexist.

01:27:53.880 — 01:28:03.760 · Speaker 2

I'm in such a joyful place of my life and I'm so happy. And at the same time, there's still pain there.

01:28:05.280 — 01:28:06.320 · Speaker 1

It can be both.

01:28:06.360 — 01:28:07.080 · Speaker 2

It can be both.

01:28:07.080 — 01:28:29.400 · Speaker 1

And well, I think most things in life are both. And we want it to be black, white, we want and people with our kind of personality. We want it to be yes. No, perfect or not. Make sense, right? Um, I think for me, my dominant thought this week has been about adjustments in my life because I just sent off my oldest to college.

01:28:29.520 — 01:28:30.600 · Speaker 2

I cannot believe that.

01:28:30.600 — 01:30:04.010 · Speaker 1

I know, I know, she's like very much taller than me in 18 and in college. And there's the adjustment to her absence. Um, as, like all the ways you would think about as a mom. And I love her, and she is darling and precious and wonderful and the emotional part and it's also an adjustment for what is our family now.

A big part of it is gone now. She's not she's not her favorite, obviously, but she's not there every day. And so what does it mean for like, even logistical, like rides, watching Penny the baby? Um. I'm remarried. Right? With a four year old like that. What about with her brother? And, like, there's there's also more space.

Like literally and, you know, energetically. And so just kind of adjusting that's been mine. Like when one kid leaves and there's another world. I guess in my life I've been the lever. If I'm honest, I left my first marriage. I'm the oldest sister, so I went to college first. Um, I've mostly been the lever.

And not. Oh, I didn't think about it like that. Yeah. But the one staying behind when someone else is left. That's an interesting perspective to see. And you know, and I know what kind of person I am. I'm not a go sit in their room and cry about a person. I'm gonna keep moving person. Something about action is the antidote.

I don't know if that's the bestest way to be, but it's definitely my way to be. Um, okay, now for okay. Another one is what's shaken you? It's like, is there anything you've read watch seeing a meme, anything that's just kind of got you like, ooh, that you're thinking about.

01:30:04.050 — 01:30:15.970 · Speaker 2

There's a book I'm reading right now called Attachment. And it's I read it. Yeah. I mean, there's all these, you know, buzzwords going around and things like that, but the attachment of.

01:30:16.610 — 01:30:21.930 · Speaker 1

Well, I think of attachment. Gosh dang. If any of you are thinking about getting married.

01:30:21.970 — 01:30:23.050 · Speaker 2

Learn your attachments.

01:30:23.090 — 01:30:47.250 · Speaker 1

Learn your attachment style because it's it talks about the different types of attachment. I made birth to this. I didn't think about this before this, but it's like you have anxious attached, avoidant attached healthy attached I think are the three. Anxious attached is when your needs. And this is what happens when your needs are not met.

When your needs are not being met, what do you do? Do you cling? Hey why are you doing. Are you mad at me?

01:30:47.250 — 01:30:47.770 · Speaker 2

You're like a.

01:30:47.770 — 01:30:49.490 · Speaker 1

Leech. Yeah. It's something wrong?

01:30:49.530 — 01:30:49.850 · Speaker 2

Yes.

01:30:49.850 — 01:30:57.210 · Speaker 1

And there's avoidant attachment. That would be more like. Oh, you're getting a little close to me. I'm going to need some space. I gotta.

01:30:57.530 — 01:31:03.410 · Speaker 2

And then those two get married. Yep. And then those two get divorced. Right. So read the book.

01:31:03.570 — 01:32:15.420 · Speaker 1

Yeah, definitely read the book. And I think that what happens is when those people confront healthy attachments, they don't know what to do with that, and it can bring out their unhealthy attachments. Um, and it's like, how do we act when our needs aren't being met? And I learned that, like, I learned to associate avoidant attachment with like, chemistry and the drama with draw.

Yeah. And so when someone wasn't treating me like that, like my husband drew was sort of like, um, is this what even is that? Right? So I think it's a really great book for people to read. It is, um, for me, like, I spent a decent bit more than I would probably like to admit of the last few weeks or months or whatever watching the Outlander series.

Have you seen that? Oh, okay. And me too. Oh, well. In NSW like not safe for work or home with children. But yeah, you're right. Okay, great. Okay. Uh, Jamie Fraser, there's the thing. I saw that if if if your girls watching, uh, Outlander. That ain't your girl. That's Jamie Fraser's girl.

01:32:17.260 — 01:32:26.100 · Speaker 1

Um, and anyway, there's that part. It's, like, very steamy. And, like, the first season has some kind of, like, hard, scary things. I just fast forward it. Okay. Watch it by myself. So. Okay.

01:32:26.140 — 01:32:27.060 · Speaker 2

Click click click. Yeah.

01:32:27.220 — 01:33:06.340 · Speaker 1

But the show itself for me is just like what it brought out is like very like Scotland in the 1700s. And it's very family oriented and very like the family is everything. And what you do for your partner in this connection. And it really just made me feel surprisingly like connected to drew and connected to my family and the family unit.

It was just like a surprising thing for me, and also just fun, because the thing is, they came out with a new, like, spinoff show called Blood in My Blood. I think it's like the prequel precursor. Yeah. So reason why it's back on my mind is that's out. And there's like a new episode airing tonight, so.

01:33:06.340 — 01:33:07.420 · Speaker 2

I know what you're doing.

01:33:07.620 — 01:33:14.700 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Oh, yes we do. I'm definitely going to have a miller Lite. That's my that's my like, my one thing of the week. I'm gonna have it.

01:33:14.740 — 01:33:16.220 · Speaker 2

I'm Miller Lite with your show.

01:33:16.620 — 01:33:19.060 · Speaker 1

Oh. You just you can just see it in my robe.

01:33:19.300 — 01:33:20.140 · Speaker 2

In your robe.

01:33:20.180 — 01:33:21.300 · Speaker 1

Covers up to here.

01:33:21.340 — 01:33:21.980 · Speaker 2

Videoing.

01:33:21.980 — 01:34:26.830 · Speaker 1

It. Drew's out of town. Yeah, maybe that's saying we have to. Yeah. Now I'm gonna have to do it, so. Okay, man. Well, thank you so much. I think you gave us really great advice already for the women of divorce land and what we would tell them. Thank you for sharing your story. It's not easy. Like I do it all over God's green internet.

Tell all the things. Um, it still doesn't make it easy. And your willingness to do that is such a gift. Because what it does is say, hey, sis, you're not alone. You're not alone in this. You don't have to live a life that medium sucks. And like, you can come out on the other side. They can join us. We're both in the My Confidante life women's circle.

Um, we can put that in the show notes, too. We're like, we gather as women to be there. We're building a community to support each other and just have these kinds of conversations and be the one to say, I see you. That sucks a lot. Here's some things that I did, and I promise you that it gets better on the other side, so maybe they can join us in there.

It'll be fun. Yes, and we can post about Outlander and all.

01:34:26.830 — 01:34:29.150 · Speaker 2

The all the things fun, the dating things.

01:34:29.150 — 01:34:43.110 · Speaker 1

The. Oh, y'all, Amanda's dating things is so good. Okay, just for another episode, we're gonna have to do. She has a list of sassy comebacks to use on the dating apps for when guys are sassy and.

01:34:43.150 — 01:34:44.550 · Speaker 2

Guys are turds.

01:34:44.910 — 01:34:45.590 · Speaker 1

She's got it.

01:34:45.590 — 01:34:46.630 · Speaker 2

Ready? I'm ready.

01:34:46.630 — 01:34:49.830 · Speaker 1

Be careful. If you swipe right, do you swipe right when you like them? Uh.

01:34:50.830 — 01:34:51.310 · Speaker 2

Yes.

01:34:51.350 — 01:34:57.590 · Speaker 1

So be careful if you swipe right on Amanda D because she has a sassy comeback rating if you get out of line. So thanks to Amanda.